tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post1465872334590954407..comments2024-01-05T06:18:18.086-05:00Comments on CommentaramaPolitics: Hypocrites and FoolsAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-19710450631553579642012-12-22T11:34:06.044-05:002012-12-22T11:34:06.044-05:00So, what do you think would be a better balance.
...So, what do you think would be a better balance.<br /><br />I know you don't want the TNG-style ending where the hero gives a Patrick Stewart speech about morality and yada-yada causing the bad guy to become a good-guy.<br />Maybe something like the Greek play Antigone where (MASSIVE SPOILERS!!!!) King Creon is taken away a broken man?<br /><br />-----------------------<br /><br />re: the silly, lazy plot device<br /><br />If you are the hero then you should never, EVER turn your back on the villain.<br /><br />-----------------------<br /><br />"Wall Street sent an entire generation into finance."<br /><br />Which is kinda ironic, when you think about it.Kithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453591141757808708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-65314652536786449852012-12-20T12:45:07.431-05:002012-12-20T12:45:07.431-05:00A normal guy trying to pick a major... a gangster ...<i>A normal guy trying to pick a major... a gangster movie wouldn't inspire him to become a gangster because he doesn't want to hurt people for a living.</i><br /><br />But again, we're not worried about the normal guy who knows that being a gangster is not a valid path. What we're talking about are (1) people who are already borderline in the criminal world, who are being "taught" that the greater their level of violence the cooler and more respected they will be, and (2) people who simply are lost in life and are looking for ways to get the things they think life has denied them... this could be crazies, frustrated boyfriends, etc. The point isn't that you or I will see a film and go join the mob, it's that people on the edge are being hit with a steady stream of messages that violence will get them what they cannot get any other way -- respect.<br /><br /><i> a gangster movie</i><br /><br />Again, I am not talking about any particular film. I think that's the flaw in how people are looking at this. It's not the one film that matters, it's the near constant barrage of films that send the same message that violence will solve your problems and make you cool. And again, it's not even just action films -- you see the same message in film after film in every genre from comedy to scifi to action to drama.<br /><br /><i>As for media coverage of spree killers, it tends not to be flattering</i><br /><br />I think you are underestimating the need people have for attention. LOTS of people just need attention, whether it's for the right things or the wrong things. And lots of people actually get off on hurting people -- look at internet trolls. It makes them feel powerful. So the media being nasty to the guy doesn't matter, just so long as they talk about him... then he's happy. And the way the media foams at the mouth about reporting everything about the guy is exactly what these people crave.<br /><br /><i>latest shooter doesn't seem to be a fame seeker</i><br /><br />People are complex and I would never say that there is one solution or one clear motive for everyone. But attention seeking is typically a motive with these guys -- along with revenge against the people who made them feel small.<br /><br /><i> I just think its silly, lazy plot device</i><br /><br />That's true, but it doesn't change the message that violence is the real solution, you just need to pay lip service to morality.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-32901444464575801282012-12-20T12:44:58.452-05:002012-12-20T12:44:58.452-05:00Anthony, I think you and I are looking at this fro...Anthony, I think you and I are looking at this from a different perspective. Let me see if this helps:<br /><br /><i>Action movies don't glorify the killing of innocents</i><br /><br />First, it's not the killing of innocents that matters. It's the idea that killing/violence is an acceptable way to solve a problem. And these films are typically premised on the idea that the villain is strong and powerful and gets what he wants because he's violent. Nobody can stop him unless a larger than life hero comes along. The message is: violence makes you powerful. Further, lots of action films include scenes where the hero (Schwarzenegger films were prone to this) uses violence against someone who was just rude but is in no way a threat -- it's usually a moment of levity. The message: violence is ok if you don't like the other guy.<br /><br />Further, action films aren't the worst offenders. Every genre uses violence and outside of action films, the morality becomes really hazy. Also, don't forget that there are huge action films like the <i>Dark Knight</i> which are very morally ambiguous which often become the films which inspire these people.<br /><br /><i>where people stop is very contingent on where they start</i><br /><br />But that misses the point... well-adjusted people aren't the problem. The problem is the less well-adjusted who aren't so sure how to live their lives and are looking for guidance. I cited the examples of <i>Wall Street</i> and <i>LA Law</i> as examples of how Hollywood can sway well-adjusted people. If it has that power, then its power to sway the not-well adjusted must be considered even stronger, and they are the ones who become the problem.<br /><br />(continued)<br />AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-81102577746320162952012-12-20T05:27:50.729-05:002012-12-20T05:27:50.729-05:00As for the tired trope of heroes killing villians ...As for the tired trope of heroes killing villians only after they are forced to, I don't see moral implications, I just think its silly, lazy plot device which happens only because everyone else does it.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16124128949343301445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-86224103549310974612012-12-20T05:25:15.006-05:002012-12-20T05:25:15.006-05:00Andrew,
1) What movies are you thinking of?
2) T...Andrew,<br /><br />1) What movies are you thinking of?<br /><br />2) There is a lot of violence in movies, but its normally moral and defensive. Action movies don't glorify the killing of innocents. Traditionally most of them have a scene which shows just how morally bankrupt the villian is. The scenes aren't framed as cool, they are framed as repulsive, showing that the often charismatic, clever villian is really just a monster wearing a pretty shell.<br /><br />I agree that Hollywood shapes opinions, but where people stop is very contingent on where they start. A normal guy trying to pick a major watches some hospital drama, maybe he decides to become a doctor, but a gangster movie wouldn't inspire him to become a gangster because he doesn't want to hurt people for a living.<br /><br />As for media coverage of spree killers, it tends not to be flattering (the guy was a bitter loser who struck out at the world). Being nutty enough to kill people in hopes of getting posthumous coverage is the end of the crazy path, but I think the path itself is composed of other elements.<br /><br />The latest shooter doesn't seem to be a fame seeker, he seems to be a guy who lived mostly inside his head, then one day crawled out and started murdering people. Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16124128949343301445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-62370450243049957712012-12-19T22:28:49.499-05:002012-12-19T22:28:49.499-05:00While you raise the point, I want to point out som...While you raise the point, I want to point out something that I find rather disturbing... the hero who doesn't shoot the villain until he is "forced to" after the hero subdues him and turns his back and the villain grabs a gun.<br /><br />I really see that as ultra hypocritical. That's a writer who wanted to have the hero kill the villain and knows he will be criticized for it, so he creates a fake setup to let that happen. But the audience knows this is so totally fake that know the message is that the hero should have just killed the villain except he had to pay lip service to being a hero. That's really cynical to me.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-72232239374771234112012-12-19T22:15:50.019-05:002012-12-19T22:15:50.019-05:00RE: Hollywood. I've always felt somewhat dissa...RE: Hollywood. I've always felt somewhat dissatisfied with the whole kill-the-villain mode of resolution. Maybe I'm a more vindictive individual, but I'd like to see them live but be made to suffer for the rest of their life. At least they could go to jail or into hiding. On the other hand, <i>MIB 3</i> offered a very good reason for killing the villain, in which case, I am satisfied.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-56264940684914054362012-12-19T22:11:52.447-05:002012-12-19T22:11:52.447-05:00Anthony, water under the bridge, and I hope I didn...Anthony, water under the bridge, and I hope I didn't cause offense myself.<br /><br />tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-69518816931800777062012-12-19T21:10:17.177-05:002012-12-19T21:10:17.177-05:00P.S. That said... I think the bigger blame lies wi...P.S. That said... I think the bigger blame lies with the media than with Hollywood. The media is out there giving these people fame and turning them into heroes. The media is what gives these guys exactly what they need -- the ability to become somebody important.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-23723450197019500472012-12-19T21:08:09.925-05:002012-12-19T21:08:09.925-05:00Anthony, In a general sense, I don't disagree ...Anthony, In a <i>general sense</i>, I don't disagree with you. BUT I do disagree for two reasons in the current instance.<br /><br />1. I think that Hollywood no longer sends the clear good v. evil dynamic. I think a ton of today's good guys are essentially evil guys who just say good things. And too often the bad guys are presented as the cool guys.<br /><br />2. I think the real problem is the <i>saturation</i> of the violence. A couple violent films is no big deal. But when every single film known to mankind includes a gun and more than half of what's in theaters today involves violent solutions being presented as acceptable solutions, I think the message does take hold with less well-grounded people that violence is acceptable. And I'm not even talking about the crazies. I'm talking about people who just lack a strong foundation upon which to make decision.<br /><br />I can point to several instances where Hollywood has implanted ideas in the culture. For example, LA Law packed the law schools. ER packed the Med schools. <i>Wall Street</i> sent an entire generation into finance. And when you see some killer do something cool with a gun in a film and then you see it repeated on the streets a few weeks later, I take all of that to mean that it is very possible to sway people into engaging in behaviors that appear positive to them on film.<br /><br />And when sooooo much that comes out of Hollywood involves "kill to solve your problems", I think this makes people more prone to see violence as a solution.<br /><br /><br />AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-18293996495368417532012-12-19T20:56:19.059-05:002012-12-19T20:56:19.059-05:00Andrew said:
2. The parents are directly to blame...Andrew said:<br /><br />2. The parents are directly to blame, but the things I point to are as well. You are looking at this as a single incident, I am looking at all the shooting, stabbings, people trying to become terrorists. That is the result of all these other factors. Everything contributes. And you simply can't have a culture that tells people "violence is the cool way to solve disputes" without that sinking in.<br />--------<br />I don't think that is necessarily the message the culture sends. Action is more interesting (for many of us) than talking (I'd rather watch a Ecks vs Sever than Sleepless in Seattle) but for sane, grounded people its just entertainment. <br /><br />The sorts of nutjobs who get influenced by movies are the sorts of people who could go off at the drop of a hat ('What Fido, you want I should kill everyone? You're the boss!).<br /><br />Most action movies tend to have a simple good and evil dynamic in which good people violently resist an evil which is violently attacking them. <br /><br />The heroes aren't guys who get snubbed at the prom and then go back murder everyone, they are guys who are fighting off terrorists, alien invaders, drug lords or some combo of the aforementioned (nods towards 'I Come in Peace').Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16124128949343301445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-73118918978901542572012-12-19T20:29:05.174-05:002012-12-19T20:29:05.174-05:00Tryanmax,
Fair enough. I apologize and stand cor...Tryanmax,<br /><br />Fair enough. I apologize and stand corrected.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16124128949343301445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-58547360397932332792012-12-19T16:37:21.903-05:002012-12-19T16:37:21.903-05:00Indi, LOL! Nicely played! :)Indi, LOL! Nicely played! :)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-38209034663268523982012-12-19T16:35:24.320-05:002012-12-19T16:35:24.320-05:00Andrew
We all know what happens to the guys weari...Andrew<br /><br />We all know what happens to the guys wearing the red shirts don't we...... wait this isn't the Star Trek posts..... NevermindIndividualisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11005025873042230314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-44086628045992901472012-12-19T14:58:49.075-05:002012-12-19T14:58:49.075-05:00Patti, Let me give you an example of how this work...Patti, Let me give you an example of how this works. First, you need to realize that humans are horrible eye witnesses. Secondly, humans are horrible at connecting dots that can't be connected.<br /><br />Here's what happens.<br /><br />A lone gunman walks into a bank. He is wearing a red shirt and carrying a black gun.<br /><br />Witness one reports that he saw one gunman wearing a red shirt.<br /><br />Witness two reports that he saw one gunman wearing a yellowish orange shirt.<br /><br />Witness three thinks the gunman wore a green shirt and doesn't know what color the gun was, but it could have been black or silver.<br /><br />The media reports each statement in real time and treats them all as true. So they report that three gunmen robbed the bank.<br /><br />The police say it was only one. People realize the red shirt and the orange shirt are probably the same guy. But who is the mystery man in green with the silver gun (notice the silver gun now becomes a fact).<br /><br />At this point, other witnesses will start to report seeing two gunmen... red shirt/green shirt - silver gun.<br /><br />Meanwhile, another witness will recall seeing someone outside the bank waiting in their car. This was true, but it happened 10 minutes earlier and that person left once their wife exited the bank. BUT now the media adds a getaway driver.<br /><br />It turns out that one of the people in the bank at the time works for a company that is one of 10,000 currently under investigation by the Justice Department for something or works for the military or for a secret defense contractor.<br /><br />The police report that one man robbed the bank, his motive was getting cash. They say there was no man in the green shirt and no getaway drive.<br /><br />BUT a small group of people don't want to believe this because they are prone to conspiracy thinking and they decide this report doesn't fit with the thing they think they KNOW... all of which are false. So they assume there must be cover up because why else would the police lie? So they look for a motive and they discover the company under investigation/soldier/contractor and they run with it. It doesn't have to make sense either because they convince themselves that they only know a tiny piece of the conspiracy, so their theory doesn't need to work... they are on the right track and that is all that matters.<br /><br />That is how these things start.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-77059624799194848992012-12-19T14:40:44.328-05:002012-12-19T14:40:44.328-05:00Anthony
If you think there was no incivility in t...Anthony<br /><br />If you think there was no incivility in the civil rights movement I suggest this as an example:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.edchange.org/multicultural/speeches/malcolm_x_ballot.html" rel="nofollow">The Ballot or the bullet</a><br /><br />Today's progressive likes to forget about Malcolm because he sided with the right on many conservative issues such as opposition to state controlled welfare and the 2nd amendment. He also stood up to Farrakhan's mentor Elijah Mohammed and was killed by the Nation of Islam for it.Individualisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11005025873042230314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-38201233745976351812012-12-19T14:32:52.298-05:002012-12-19T14:32:52.298-05:00Anthony
In Krav Maga we learn to defend ourselves...Anthony<br /><br />In Krav Maga we learn to defend ourselves against, fists, knives, bats and guns while unarmed. I am not an expert only 1 and a half years now but the ex navy sergeant who trained seals that teaches the class is.<br /><br /><br />According to him the number one weapon used to kill people in the US last year was the ball bat (13K murders to 9K) murders.<br /><br />Of all the fights we are taught to defend against the most serious one is when someone pulls a knife. Someone using a gun may let you live if you give them money.<br /><br />Someone pulling a knife intends to kill you and the deadliest and most severe wound that you can endure is a knife wound. Bullets penetrate but are in and out and survivable if hit once. Being stabbed with a knife can do much more damage to internal organs as it goes in and out and can be twisted. Even grazing knife wounds of the hit the right area of the neck, face or arms can cause you to bleed out and die without medical attention.<br /><br />Quite frankly the knife is a more dangerous weapon than a gun because it is the most likely to kill with one single attack. The guns only advantage is range but within 21 ' the knife wielder wins.Individualisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11005025873042230314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-5544098068248921692012-12-19T13:45:13.475-05:002012-12-19T13:45:13.475-05:00I believe K just said the magic woid! *hic*I believe K just said the magic woid! *hic*tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-53012116265515774392012-12-19T13:41:27.920-05:002012-12-19T13:41:27.920-05:00K, I agree. This is again false thinking, the ide...K, I agree. This is again false thinking, the idea that you can change a human problem by taking away an inanimate object.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-33637668976693681062012-12-19T13:38:16.112-05:002012-12-19T13:38:16.112-05:00Guns = Demon rum.
We already know how that turne...Guns = Demon rum. <br /><br />We already know how that turned out. Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16289856510554336990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-25542985819190383502012-12-19T13:11:59.949-05:002012-12-19T13:11:59.949-05:00Patti, The problem is NOT that the media will only...Patti, The problem is NOT that the media will only report what fulfills the administration's goals. To the contrary, they are reporting everything they can find and then some.<br /><br />Watching it live, you get a media feed that is trying to find significance in every "fact" they report, whether those "facts" are true or not. They don't even go back and unreport things that turn out not to be true or relevant. Basically, you get flooded with a lot of nonsense that you get told is important even though it's not and most of which is false. So when you try to piece together what happened, you get an impossible puzzle to solve because you don't have the information you need plus you are trying to process garbage that is wrong.<br /><br />Then you add people trying to inject motives that satisfy themselves rather than having anything to do with reality, because conspiracy thinking is about making the conspiracy theorist feel like they are important. And these people conveniently ignore any fact or bit of reality which goes against what they want to believe.<br /><br />The conspiracy theories around this are pure garbage.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-90853365221133166812012-12-19T13:01:57.690-05:002012-12-19T13:01:57.690-05:00i'm not a conspiracy-gal, not even close. but...i'm not a conspiracy-gal, not even close. but watching it live and seeing things with my own peepers has left me with all kinds of questions. although the media will only report that which fulfills the administration's quest to gain more power, so i shouldn't be surprised.Notawonkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15388997298014397980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-74407903883981966362012-12-19T12:56:57.317-05:002012-12-19T12:56:57.317-05:00Patti, I don't put any credence in that. This...Patti, I don't put any credence in that. This is classic conspiracy thinking, based on trying to find meaning in wrong information and supposedly missing links that can't be drawn. Unfortunately all events like this lead people to come up with these ideas.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-45013291810191948632012-12-19T12:51:34.713-05:002012-12-19T12:51:34.713-05:00T-Rav, As Anthony mentioned, I do need to credit O...T-Rav, As Anthony mentioned, I do need to credit Obama with showing restraint and then mentioning that this is a big picture thing with a lot of different causes that need to be addressed. I hadn't seen Letterman make a similar statement, but if he did, then I am glad.<br /><br />Unfortunately, they are outliers. The vast majority of liberals/leftists have been utterly shameless in politicizing this.<br /><br />AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-74454667847694228062012-12-19T12:43:27.237-05:002012-12-19T12:43:27.237-05:00i was sent a link to a post about the inconsistenc...i was sent a link to a post about the inconsistencies reported, yet shown on live tv. it creeps me out and i wondered if you guys have had any similar thoughts.<br /><br />i posted it today on wonk.Notawonkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15388997298014397980noreply@blogger.com