tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post3426042577481767577..comments2024-01-05T06:18:18.086-05:00Comments on CommentaramaPolitics: Conservatives: Repetition As InsanityAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-84065845003092012642012-12-06T20:12:13.804-05:002012-12-06T20:12:13.804-05:00Ellen, I'm not panicked because there are some...Ellen, I'm not panicked because there are some rays of hope. But they are fighting uphill at the moment.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-21433178484588888732012-12-06T19:55:49.732-05:002012-12-06T19:55:49.732-05:00Honestly, I'm not hopeful. I think conservati...Honestly, I'm not hopeful. I think conservatism is lost because conservatives have stuck their heads in the sand.ellenBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17868593283128151858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-9915665816504673842012-12-06T18:08:24.551-05:002012-12-06T18:08:24.551-05:00Thanks Jed, maybe I'll pick that up.
I think ...Thanks Jed, maybe I'll pick that up.<br /><br />I think this is absolutely a long term problem. Fixing this problem requires (1) becoming a palatable choice again for the majority of Americans (which means stop scaring them and start offering something they can believe in), (2) creating a plan to reform the safety net to reduce the number of people on it and to provide incentives for people to stay off it (3) making everyone pay taxes (ending the 47% problem), (4) kick-starting the economy to get people generating wealth, and (5) reshaping things like the tax code, Wall Street regulation, etc. to wipe out the appearance of inequality in the sense that right now it appears that the rich get what they want and everyone else gets screwed.<br /><br />Those are long term issues, but they are very doable. But right now, conservatism is stuck in the gate because too many people are clinging to the idea that we should not change on single syllable of anything we do.<br /><br />That's really the problem right now.<br /><br />It's amazing to me too. After 10 years of doing the same thing and failing time and again, you would think people would be more open to actually trying something else... but apparently, most aren't. I'm glad NR is talking about this. I think Jindal and hopefully Ryan and Rubio are on board. But so many others aren't.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-45315170112768541262012-12-06T17:59:26.493-05:002012-12-06T17:59:26.493-05:00sorry about that. I didn't realize it wasn'...sorry about that. I didn't realize it wasn't the full article. I happen to still subscribe to the print version of National Review. Had you been able to see that, Brooks points out this is a decades old phenomenon. Obama did not create our economic situation. However, he did make it worse. He talks about 3 pillars of conventional wisdom that must change, and how we can go about changing them over time. 1) our economic system is unfair and income inequality is a problem per se. 2) Our ever expanding entitlement system can co-exist with the American experience. 3) The government can and should pick the right course for the economy to follow (e.g. winners and losers.) He adds some good ideas of how to change conventional wisdom, but like your own article, it is more designed with a long play than a quick election win. Actually, the current issue of the magazine has several articles, and although I know these guys are not your favorites, it would not be a bad one to pick up. (Hey, you still read The Economist l.o.l.)Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-88339402768644474812012-12-06T17:13:34.126-05:002012-12-06T17:13:34.126-05:00T-Rav, Ultimately, I don't think conservative ...T-Rav, Ultimately, I don't think conservative will change. They've decided to die as an ideology rather than even make rhetorical changes. Oh well.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-56614156329850340072012-12-06T17:02:58.413-05:002012-12-06T17:02:58.413-05:00I was busy today, so I'm just now commenting. ...I was busy today, so I'm just now commenting. But also, I don't have much to say on this that I haven't already said. I'm with Bev--the electorate doesn't seem willing to listen, no matter how palatable we try to make ourselves. And in that context, I'm not changing my opposition to abortion, gay marriage, or illegal immigration for anyone. If the people who think that's mean are also the ones who got upset by the phrase "binders full of women," then they can go screw themselves. Period. T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-4505791727141576292012-12-06T16:56:28.292-05:002012-12-06T16:56:28.292-05:00Jed, Sadly, the article requires a subscription......Jed, Sadly, the article requires a subscription... which I don't have. :( Here's the link though: <a href="http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/the-once-and-future-conventional-wisdom/" rel="nofollow">LINK</a>.<br /><br />From the intro though, let me point out that I don't think this comes down to Americans suddenly hating the rich or the Republicans no defending them properly. I think the problem has been that the Republicans really have done nothing to help the economic benefits of anyone but the rich. I think the Republicans need to refocus on the middle class and be proud about that. They need to rediscover the American dream and push that. Right now, come across only as a party that want to protect a small group of rich people form a minor tax hike while they simultaneously do the bidding of crony donors. That's a horrible image.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-58568019642539225512012-12-06T16:50:03.864-05:002012-12-06T16:50:03.864-05:00This is a link to a good article by Arthur C. Broo...This is a link to a good article by Arthur C. Brooks. It covers some of the same ideas being discussed during recent articles here:<br /><br />http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/the-once-and-future-conventional-wisdom/Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-81367225246599170202012-12-06T16:49:11.501-05:002012-12-06T16:49:11.501-05:00K, Romney, hardly, but a lot of the others. When ...K, Romney, hardly, but a lot of the others. When the debate came up about extending unemployment, talk radio, bloggers, and a lot of the more conservative politicians were describing people on unemployment as lazy and saying we needed to get the government out of the business of providing unemployment because it only promotes laziness and gives people a reason to stay unemployed... "those people don't want to work" was a common refrain.<br /><br />Whenever welfare comes up, a vast number of conservatives again argue "those people don't want to work." That's the idea behind dumping welfare on charities instead of the government because charities can decide who really "deserves" it and can cut off the rest.<br /><br />During the healthcare debate, the one thing the Republicans and conservatives never worried about was how to cover people who weren't covered or how to cover people who couldn't be insured.<br /><br />The assumption with these conservatives is that anyone on benefits is there because they are lazy and don't want to work. And their "policy" suggestions are to dump the programs or make them incredibly restrictive so that only a tiny portion of people will qualify.<br /><br />If you're a low/middle class person who doesn't take the time to parse which idiocy people actually mean and which idiocy is just verbal masturbation, then you hear this as "wipe the whole thing out and leave people to fend for themselves." And honestly, a good number of libertarian leaning conservatives have openly said things like that.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-27586517738133287012012-12-06T16:37:00.105-05:002012-12-06T16:37:00.105-05:00Andrew:The Republicans scream about "we want ...Andrew:<em>The Republicans scream about "we want to kill the safety net"</em><br /><br />Wow. I must have missed that particular speech. The Tea Party people I've communicated with were all about going back to Reagan levels of government - and he was officially on board with keeping the "social safety net", in fact, I think that's where the term came from. <br /><br />So you're saying Romney and the Republicans wanted to cut meaningful social services? Perhaps you can give some particulars. Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16289856510554336990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-83710741948742758142012-12-06T14:43:42.559-05:002012-12-06T14:43:42.559-05:00Ed, I do my best. :)Ed, I do my best. :)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-59060999522973923592012-12-06T14:43:26.648-05:002012-12-06T14:43:26.648-05:00Bev, Honestly, I don't think Romney really ran...Bev, Honestly, I don't think Romney really ran on this. I think he ran on a very muddled platform that offered no real specifics except tinkering with the tax code, lots of little ad hoc promises made during debates that he never followed up on, and a general sense of "I'm a businessman, I know what I'm doing." There was no platform you could point to. And his "I know what I'm doing point" got crushed in his coming from the world of finance and having shut down businesses.<br /><br />He certainly didn't offer anything on healthcare or pensions or home values or education. And while he was much more reasonable on issues like regulation, he was surrounded by a party that was screaming "shut down the EPA" and hand the healthcare system to big insurance companies. Add in the heavy, heavy focus on social issues and the deportation comment and I think any economic message Romney had was lost.<br /><br />On your second point, I disagree. I don't think the American people are at that point where they just want to be bought with promises of government goodies. I really do think the problem is that to the average person, the Democrats <i>sound</i> like they want to help people whereas the Republicans <i>sound</i> like they hate people. The Democrats aren't promising, "you will get goodies." They are promising, we will get you jobs and better services. The Republicans scream about "we want to kill the safety net" while handing money and power to Big Business while screaming excessively about imposing their very minority view of morality on everyone by brutal force of law. Of course, the Republicans will lose that. And it's only to the credit of the American people that elections are even close if that's what's being offered, because that means half the public is capable of looking past the rank stupidity of the GOP to see the value of the things the GOP supports, even if the GOP has no clue how to articulate them.<br /><br />A majority of the people will accept non-pandering. They will accept the truth. They will accept austerity. BUT you have to given them a reason. You have to let them know how it will help them. You have to find ways to explain to them why it's in their interest. We don't do that right now.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-62123659041437238602012-12-06T14:27:40.503-05:002012-12-06T14:27:40.503-05:00"Bev, Also, what you are saying sounds like y..."Bev, Also, what you are saying sounds like you think we just can't win the American people. If that's the case, then what's the harm in trying to change our approach?"<br /><br />A. Maybe I was somewhere else, but didn't Romney RUN on <i>"we will make sure you have a dozen jobs to choose from, or you can start your own business without the bad guys (govt, big business) stopping you. We're going to help you educate your kids in better schools, send them to college without saddling them with back-breaking debts. We're going to make sure that your roads are better, your air is cleaner, your food is safer, your healthcare is cheaper and more modern. We're going to make sure you have a decent pension. We're going to protect you from the bad people around the world and we're going to bring more wealth home by keeping jobs here."</i>??<br /><br />B. No, I do not think that in the long run we can change the American people when it is easier to tell lies and offer a free lunch. Sorry if I keep harping on this, but that is what the Dems offer...the promise of free stuff and it works for votes, but for nothing else (btw). Oh, we can lie and promise free stuff too, promise that if only we [fill in the blank], we promise there will be no more poor people in the world. <br /><br />I want the truth. I want to know exactly how many unemployed/unemployable people we have in this country. How many people who die from lack of proper medical care. Who are starving because of lack of food, clothing, shelter etc. I want to know exactly where our money is being spent and how it is being spent. I want to know why Congress gets to opt out of all the stupid legislation they pass and WE let them. I WANT THE TRUTH, NOT MORE PANDERING FOR VOTES!!! IS THERE NO ONE ADULT ENOUGH TO DO THAT???? Knowing the truth is much more effective tool for solving the problem. It is much easier and more effective to solve problems when onwe know the unvarnished truth. But lies make us feel better and make us vote for the best liars who make us feel better. And exactly where does that get us? Votes and power and changes nothing.<br /><br />BevfromNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14953050916932306270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-76346328297538032492012-12-06T13:56:40.823-05:002012-12-06T13:56:40.823-05:00trynamx, Same here. I like the fact that Andrew a...trynamx, Same here. I like the fact that Andrew always has a thoughtful view of things that everyone else just kneejerks. I wish we could find a way to get more people to read, especially people like real politicians.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18122308626703654554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-36213115630585654062012-12-06T13:31:28.031-05:002012-12-06T13:31:28.031-05:00tryanmax, That's what I'm hoping to do wit...tryanmax, That's what I'm hoping to do with the Agenda 2016 series. I really plan to get into details, both what we should be promising, how we should be promising it, and what the policies should be -- because those are very different thing.<br /><br />The thing about real vision verses just saying "no," by the way, is that just saying no is easier, especially when people are upset. It is very easy to criticize, especially when you're never held to account for your criticism. Coming up with ideas is harder and takes a lot more risk.<br /><br />But I have to say, I am happy to hear similar rhetoric to what I think we need coming from Ryan, Rubio and Jindal. I don't hear the cynical political calculations yet, but I am hearing some of the rhetoric. So I think we're at least about to take some baby steps in the right direction.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-44475492295745651052012-12-06T13:23:32.838-05:002012-12-06T13:23:32.838-05:00Bev, Also, what you are saying sounds like you thi...Bev, Also, what you are saying sounds like you think we just can't win the American people. If that's the case, then what's the harm in trying to change our approach? Clearly what we are doing isn't working, so rather than just keep trying it, let's try a more positive approach.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-67824649343823005842012-12-06T13:22:30.498-05:002012-12-06T13:22:30.498-05:00tryanmax, I haven't looked into it but I would...tryanmax, I haven't looked into it but I would share you suspicions. The only thing I knew about these people was that they basically were total contrarians and pretty much just objected to everything. People like that are not helpful.<br /><br />Like I said, I haven't looked into it, but it strikes me as not a real purge.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-86560258657481389302012-12-06T13:19:15.354-05:002012-12-06T13:19:15.354-05:00They wrap themselves into the mantra "we need...<i>They wrap themselves into the mantra "we need to return to conservative principles" but that's just talk, they never offer a single example of how except "vote against the Democrats."</i><br /><br />That's my only point, Ed. People need examples. <b>I</b> need examples. (That's why I come <i>here</i>.) Conservatism is supposed to be about using sound principles to determine a course of action. "No, no, no, no, no," is not a course of action. Yes, throwing a tantrum draws an audience, but so can <i>real vision</i>.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-63299593462597685302012-12-06T13:13:22.903-05:002012-12-06T13:13:22.903-05:00Jed, I agree, BUT... we're doing it wrong. By...Jed, I agree, BUT... we're doing it wrong. By standing in Obama's way WE will end up taking responsibility for what will happen because he will point at us for ruining things.<br /><br />You watch, they will reach an agreement and the Republicans will be accused of everything bad that happens from now on because they (1) delayed the deal and there by caused problems and (2) stopped Obama from getting everything he wanted, which means his policies "never got a chance to be implemented."<br /><br />They need to either pick a real agenda and fight for it, or step back and say, "it's yours" and start sniping him every chance they get. Doing what they are doing now is the worst thing they could possibly be doing.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-17122246971554438742012-12-06T13:12:14.501-05:002012-12-06T13:12:14.501-05:00Quick point on the alleged "Boehner Purge&quo...Quick point on the alleged "Boehner Purge"--There is no such thing; it is a fabrication b/w the bitter individuals who were dismissed and a complicit right-wing media eager to make a claim against "The Establishment." ♪♫ duh-duh-duh ♪♫<br /><br />In reality, there were only <b>three</b> dismissals from a total of 57 Republican-held committee positions. Yes, all three dismissed had received Tea Party backing in their elections, but so did the vast majority of the people still on those committees, including Budget Committee Chair and Tea Party favorite Paul Ryan. Not to mention, 21 of those positions are held by members elected for the first time in 2010.<br /><br />Finally, who are these "victims" of the purge? Tim Huelskamp of Kansas, Justin Amash of Michigan, and David Schweikert of Arizona. I don't know about you, but I never heard of any of these guys before. I'm not going to take their conservative credentials on faith from a right-wing media that has lost its way. But even allowing their conservatism, they are certainly no more so than the committee members left in place.<br /><br />In short, three dismissals do not a purge make. tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-67499965242653322662012-12-06T13:09:54.323-05:002012-12-06T13:09:54.323-05:00Bev,
Their strategy has been to use soundbites an...Bev,<br /><br /><i>Their strategy has been to use soundbites and buzz words and short sentences. And because people are really stupid and have the attention span of gnats, it works. And when something is repeated over and over and over again, it becomes the truth.</i><br /><br />True. But there's a more fundamental point behind this. I don't think people are cynical as we are here and I think people genuinely believe that when someone who has reached the point of becoming Presidents says "I can give you healthcare and we can pay for it with a tiny tax hike on the rich," they believe that.<br /><br />Yes, the progressives want to see the rich punished, but I think the rest of the public just cares about their own circumstances and don't really want to see anyone made to suffer for them. And frankly, when you're talking about a 3-5% hike in tax rates, the public doesn't see that as punishing anyone.<br /><br />On your question about what we can offer, we can offer the promise of a better America. Corny, but true. We need to offer them a promise of jobs, prosperity, financial security mixed with the chance to achieve the American Dream. Why did we ever stop talking about the American Dream?<br /><br />We need to tell them "we will make sure you have a dozen jobs to choose from, or you can start your own business without the bad guys (govt, big business) stopping you. We're going to help you educate your kids in better schools, send them to college without saddling them with back-breaking debts. We're going to make sure that your roads are better, your air is cleaner, your food is safer, your healthcare is cheaper and more modern. We're going to make sure you have a decent pension. We're going to protect you from the bad people around the world and we're going to bring more wealth home by keeping jobs here." And the truth is that we can do almost all of the above without spending more money.<br /><br />That's what we need to be promising. Not, "we're going to protect people above $250,000 from the Bush tax cuts expiring.<br /><br />We'll do better in 2014, it's all but guaranteed.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-56253129734460407332012-12-06T13:08:16.197-05:002012-12-06T13:08:16.197-05:00our best shot is after things really start to coll...our best shot is after things really start to collapse. "See I told you so" can be an effective tag line, although the horse will have long since left the barn.Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-8791710851260936772012-12-06T12:58:14.651-05:002012-12-06T12:58:14.651-05:00Andrew, That is a brilliant description: The Wiza...Andrew, That is a brilliant description: The Wizard of Oz Party.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18122308626703654554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-12454564938189952012012-12-06T12:50:12.568-05:002012-12-06T12:50:12.568-05:00Okay, let's break this down in real words and ...Okay, let's break this down in real words and platitudes for the stupid (which apparently works every time because most people in the world ARE simple folk and can really only process maybe 10 words at a time.<br /><br />This is the Democrats platform<br />(1) I'm going to guarantee you healthcare,<br /><br />TRANSLATION - I am going to guarantee you "free stuff" that rich people don't want you to have;<br /><br />(2) I have a plan to create jobs by building bridges and roads,<br /><br />TRANSLATION - More Goverment is good, so make the rich people pay.<br /><br />It worked for Roosevelt and Truman Of course, Well, we had to kill 1/3 of our male workforce in WWII, so there were less jobs that needed to be created post War.<br /><br />(3) I'm going to restore America's credibility overseas,<br /><br />TRANSLATION - Americans are bad and I am going to make them pay. <i>[Added subtext: THEN everyone will like ME because I am so honest.]</i><br /><br />(4) I'm going to punish Wall Street for the recession, <br /><br />TRANSLATION - Rich people bad and I will make them pay<br /><br />(5) I'm going to fix [and] save you from your upside down mortgage and restore the value to your house, and I'm going to make the rich pay for it.<br /><br />TRANSLATION - Rich people are bad and I will make them pay.<br /><br />Their strategy has been to use soundbites and buzz words and short sentences. And because people are really stupid and have the attention span of gnats, it works. And when something is repeated over and over and over again, it becomes the truth.<br /><br />So other than give away free stuff and offer to kill all rich people, what could a Republican platform possibly be that will win? Oh, we may be able to convince the hardcore to shut the hell up about abortion, gay marriage, and legalizing drugs, and then we can drop trying to fix anything - tax reform, fixing Mediscare, and Social Security or trying to defund Obamacare. The problem is that WE SPEND TO DAMN MUCH MONEY. But hearing that makes people afraid and feel bad about themselves, so we can't go there either. And scaring people by telling people that "the other guy is going to take stuff away" works every time. Because it feeds that most primal, "protect the stuff" part of the animal brain.<br /><br />And no offense, I expect that in 2014 the Republican so lose the House too. I will bet you $100 real money.BevfromNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14953050916932306270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-3021678954795738162012-12-06T12:47:25.640-05:002012-12-06T12:47:25.640-05:00Ed, "Oppose" is easy. It takes no brain...Ed, "Oppose" is easy. It takes no brains to complain about something someone else is doing. It does take brains (and guts) to offer your own plan. What you are seeing right now is the Wizard of Oz party -- one lost little girl with friends with no brains and no guts who is hoping a wizard will save her ass.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.com