tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post5025377596900643277..comments2024-01-05T06:18:18.086-05:00Comments on CommentaramaPolitics: The Heritage Foundation's $6.3 Trillion DeceptionAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-47562200764867599712013-05-09T17:50:32.502-04:002013-05-09T17:50:32.502-04:00FYI, there are some unsavory things turning up abo...<b>FYI</b>, there are some unsavory things turning up about the guy who co-authored the Heritage study: <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/heritage-immigration-study-co-author-penned-articles-nationalist-174301703.html" rel="nofollow">LINK</a>.<br /><br />He posted articles for a website run by a guy who describes himself as a "Nationalist" and who founded "a think tank for White Americans."<br /><br />It also turns out that his thesis at Harvard claimed that immigrants have low IQs and apparently suggested banning immigrants with low IQs. Heritage has disavowed his dissertation after it was brought to their attention this week.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-30505510786827350502013-05-09T00:45:56.216-04:002013-05-09T00:45:56.216-04:00Interestingly, here's a statement issued today...Interestingly, here's a statement issued today by a group of soon-to-be-named RINOS:<br /><br /><i>"Simply opposing immigration reform should not be the conservative response to this problem. We believe conservatives should be leading the way on this issue by supporting legislation that upholds conservative principles."</i><br /><br />This list of RINOs includes Ralph Reed, Paul Wolfowitz, Al Cardenas (who runs the American Conservative Union), Lawson Bader (who runs the Competitive Enterprise Institute), and about two dozen more. Add in Rubio, Ryan, and Grover Norquist.<br /><br />That's a lot of secret RINOs.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-22607063772939180422013-05-08T19:47:14.237-04:002013-05-08T19:47:14.237-04:00Koshcat, You're welcome. I honestly wanted to...Koshcat, You're welcome. I honestly wanted to move on from this issue, but then this report came out and it was shocking to me how obviously false it was. This is not conduct I expect from our side. This is the kind of garbage you expect from MSNBC and Paul Krugman.<br /><br />I agree with you that Heritage could have contributed a lot to this debate, but I don't think they intended to examine this fairly -- I think they intended to create a report to support the position they wanted.<br /><br />A more honest analysis would have looked at (1) what will these people really cost/contribute if we do nothing, (2) what will they cost/contribute if we pass this bill and (3) what would they cost/contribute if we adopted some other plan. It also would not have tried to distort the data as this report does. And it would have used "dynamic scoring" (i.e. accounting for changes in behavior -- something conservatives have been demanding for years from the CBO). Such a report could have been used as a way to either offer a better plan or tweak this one to improve it. But now, this report is meaningless except as a credibility destroyer for Heritage. In effect, Heritage just proved what the left has been saying about them for years.<br /><br />Honestly, if I was on their board, I would want whoever did this fired.<br /><br />As for the tax issue of which you speak, I haven't seen much on that, but I know that most of them do pay taxes in one form or another. California probably would be doomed without that income, but I can't say that for certain. Their farming industry would be destroyed, that's for sure.<br /><br />On your Obama-politics point, don't get me started. I'm sick of that attitude of trying to attack everything... and I get the feeling a lot of other people are too. I think talk radio land will be in for a shock when some of the people they think they love support this bill.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-12543277298795870842013-05-08T19:10:40.037-04:002013-05-08T19:10:40.037-04:00Thank you for the review. I think the Heritage Fo...Thank you for the review. I think the Heritage Foundation missed an opportunity here. One concern about the illegal aliens is some of them have been having their wages taxed, not to mention they pay sales tax. On the former, many employers will collect their "social security numbers" and submit as required by law their state and federal taxes. These are on things that they will never receive such as social security. I don't have the source but I read somewhere that if all the illegal aliens were to be kicked out states such as California would go bankrupt do to this loss revenue.<br /><br />An analysis of this as well as an analysis of how much it will cost to lose this free lunch as well as appropriately pay them their due would have been much more informative.<br /><br />As a sovereign country, we have the right to determine immigration into our country. Currently the situation is not working very well. I see this bill as a way to improve it. I haven't see any of the other yahoos come up with a real plan. Of course it is much easier to play Obama-politics where you sit back and whine and criticize what others are trying to do but never come up with a real solution yourself.Koshcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552108950848576633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-83504548160854897282013-05-08T17:18:09.557-04:002013-05-08T17:18:09.557-04:00Ellen, Thanks. I've said it before, there may ...Ellen, Thanks. I've said it before, there may be things that need to be fixed in the bill and there may be valid reasons to oppose the bill, though I haven't seen those yet, but making up garbage about it to stop it is not worthy of conservatives.<br /><br /><br />I saw that about Leahy. I'm not sure yet if that is a genuine attempt to sabotage the bill or if they're just trying to get conservative opponents to up their level of hate. If it ends up in the bill, then it's a sabotage attempt -- a "poison pill." I suspect however, he's just waving it get our fringe more agitated.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-30684935527131482122013-05-08T16:52:19.488-04:002013-05-08T16:52:19.488-04:00Also, did you see what Leahy did with the gay righ...Also, did you see what Leahy did with the gay rights thing? I saw that and I thought of your comments that the Democrats don't want this thing passing. You might be very right about that.ellenBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17868593283128151858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-32644924612942505382013-05-08T16:51:21.867-04:002013-05-08T16:51:21.867-04:00Excellent takedown, Andrew. I am not very happy wi...Excellent takedown, Andrew. I am not very happy with "conservatives" at the moment and things like this are the reason. Thanks for setting the record straight.ellenBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17868593283128151858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-15915928628214873822013-05-08T13:43:04.200-04:002013-05-08T13:43:04.200-04:00Thanks Nightcrawler! Yeah, this is not our side&#...Thanks Nightcrawler! Yeah, this is not our side's finest hour.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-59658031072046472162013-05-08T13:37:20.084-04:002013-05-08T13:37:20.084-04:00Nice analysis, Andrew, as always. It's really...Nice analysis, Andrew, as always. It's really sad that conservatives are acting this way. I don't like the fact these people broke the law to get here, but they are here so we need to do something to fix the situation. Whining about it and making fake reports to keep people from trying to fix the problem doesn't speak well for conservatism.NightcrawlerERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03104937671864473431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-23517117346255390192013-05-08T12:32:18.759-04:002013-05-08T12:32:18.759-04:00Yeah, that's probably true.
This report is so...Yeah, that's probably true.<br /><br />This report is so obviously false that I can't imagine the people who put it together at Heritage didn't know what they were doing.... you can't make this many biased assumptions without knowing that you're lying. So it clear had a point other than enlightening the debate.<br /><br />I would say it was written to give opponents the appearance of having a reason other than bias to oppose the bill.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-33834725153053557142013-05-08T12:26:23.920-04:002013-05-08T12:26:23.920-04:00As for the fissure, it's already there. ... th...<i>As for the fissure, it's already there. ... they're doubling down actually. </i><br /><br />That's what I mean. The fissure is there and the report is a wedge that Heritage has decided to drive into it. tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-78445846954010838232013-05-08T12:20:56.248-04:002013-05-08T12:20:56.248-04:00tryanmax, I'm told they already are, but then,...tryanmax, I'm told they already are, but then, those same people have already identified opposing the Rubio bill as a litmus test. This just adds to the tantrum.<br /><br />As for the fissure, it's already there. The right is split into those looking to become a viable political philosophy again and those don't want that.<br /><br />On Heritage specifically, this is really damaging to them precisely because so many conservatives are seeing right through this. Heritage is one of those places that was supposed to be a genuine think tank -- somewhere you could trust for data and ideas, but this shows that they are no better than talk radio. And with the number of prominent conservatives lining up against this, it will damage them a lot of they don't find a way to back down from this.... which they won't -- they're doubling down actually.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-20124300158430758932013-05-08T12:15:32.245-04:002013-05-08T12:15:32.245-04:00K, I didn't say they don't work here, I sa...K, I didn't say they don't work here, I said it was impossible for them to get decent jobs and move up the income ladder. All they can basically get right now are labor jobs. And Heritage is pretended that's all they will ever get, even after the restrictions which keep them from getting better jobs are gone.<br /><br />It's the same thing like saying, "Well, we made it illegal for them to drive, so most don't drive, so granting them licenses will be pointless since they clearly will never drive." It's false reasoning.<br /><br />As the poll, so what? First, polls are meaningless. If you asked how many Americans would move to Canada if Obama got re-elected you would have gotten about 25%... and not one of them would have gone. Secondly, the bill doesn't allow that -- they would be sent home. Third, conditions have changed dramatically. Mexico is short on people, their narco war is dying down. Their economy is improving, ours isn't. For several years now, we've had net-zero immigration from there. That's not going to change.<br /><br />Finally, if you're fine for green cards for all, then you should be for this bill, because that's what this bill does. It puts them on the green card track -- after a lengthy delay during which time they are cut off from benefits and during which time border security is supposed to take place.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-68141383534767909542013-05-08T09:28:50.067-04:002013-05-08T09:28:50.067-04:00Because Heritage is so revered, many on the right ...Because Heritage is so revered, many on the right will use agreement with this report as a conservative litmus test. But because a number of prominent conservatives disagree with it with little fear of losing their support, the Heritage report may open a fissure in the GOP. <br /><br /> tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-36629968417399913532013-05-08T04:35:08.673-04:002013-05-08T04:35:08.673-04:00I think you're mistaken. Just because it's...I think you're mistaken. Just because it's "illegal" doesn't mean no illegal alien doesn't work here. It's illegal for them to drive in California as well, but somehow they all manage it. The California housing bubble was built on the backs of cheap illegal carpenters, installers and plumbers. And "cheap" here means mucho dinero next to Walmart stocker. <br /><br />Since I live next to a big city where the bill boards were proclaiming "Los Angeles: Mexico" on Mexican language radio station ads a decade ago I'm probably biased that a hell of a lot live in big cities. <br /><br />Something else to chew on in this thread: <a href="http://www.cis.org/ZogbyPoll-EffectsOfAmnesty" rel="nofollow">LINK</a><br /><br />Note that according to Pew public opinion poll of Mexican citizens in Mexico, 1/3 said they would come to the US if they could. <br /><br />To reiterate: I'm fine with green cards for all - but it has to be realized that out of control immigration is a body blow to the republic - particularly in a multi-culti context. Unless immigrant education to American cultural norms is mandated I'm against the bill. Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16289856510554336990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-91152684261258330482013-05-08T02:23:02.460-04:002013-05-08T02:23:02.460-04:00Also, as for the assertion only flying if there is...Also, as for the assertion only flying if there is a recovery, that's simply not true. These people are here whether we make them legal or not. These costs get incurred whether or not they are made legal. What Rubio's bill does is let them join the real workforce and pay taxes. Without that bill, they just keep going as they are and they pay no taxes... but the cost is the same either way.<br />AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-10534396498009332352013-05-08T02:19:37.528-04:002013-05-08T02:19:37.528-04:00K, Since a large majority of the illegals have bee...K, <i>Since a large majority of the illegals have been in this country for more than a decade, I'd say that isn't as wild an assumption as you might think.</i><br /><br />Except you forget the key fact -- they aren't legally allowed to work here right now. Thus, they CAN'T currently work at WalMart or other big companies and they can't really climb on the income ladder. That's why they become day laborers. Making them legal eliminates this barrier and lets them start up the ladder by getting real jobs.<br />AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-5604955194189382722013-05-08T02:14:45.081-04:002013-05-08T02:14:45.081-04:00K, What I'm saying is that Heritage is trying...K, What I'm saying is that Heritage is trying to make immigrants sound more expensive by claiming that they ALL live in big cities and everything in big cities is more expensive. And when Heritage divides up the cost of government, they assign a much larger share to immigrants based on that assumption.<br /><br />It is the equivalent of me saying, "Well, whites live in rich areas like Potomac, Maryland or Beverly Hills, California and those places cost a lot more, so all whites should be hit with a corresponding surcharge because all whites cost more."<br /><br />It's nonsense reasoning by Heritage. Moreover, Heritage ignores the fact that any map will show you that most illegal immigrants are clustered along the border regions where there are no big cities, and that those in the big cities live in the inner city parts which are not nearly as expensive as big cities as a whole.<br /><br />Thus, Heritage is used false assumptions and my point was to demonstrate the illogic of their assumptions by pointing out that under Heritage's assumptions, we can wipe out their supposed deficit by simply moving all the illegals to small cities... something which is clearly nonsense, but which logically flows from what Heritage is claiming.<br />AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-36794801805670352532013-05-08T02:13:57.979-04:002013-05-08T02:13:57.979-04:00Heritage assumes that illegals will never earn mor...<em>Heritage assumes that illegals will never earn more than they do now.</em><br /><br />Since a large majority of the illegals have been in this country for more than a decade, I'd say that isn't as wild an assumption as you might think. But let's assume you are correct. Where are those "upgraded" jobs going to come from? Yeah, from jobs the natives would have otherwise occupied. What will those natives do instead - go on unemployment, welfare or disability? I think your assertion only flys if the economy recovers completely - and that's unlikely, particularly in California. Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16289856510554336990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-66639724808993481132013-05-08T01:59:39.678-04:002013-05-08T01:59:39.678-04:00Heritage simply asserts that immigrants use more s...<em>Heritage simply asserts that immigrants use more services (and illegals use even more) because immigrants live in higher density areas and therefore cost more. So, logically, if we move all the illegals to smaller towns, suddenly they become cheaper than natives. Does that seem credible to you?</em><br /><br />So you're saying that Podunk Wisconsin has the same welfare, unemployment, infrastructure, public employee pensions that Los Angeles does? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if all the illegals in Los Angeles moved to Podunk, which doesn't have all those costs, they'd be cheaper than the average native. Maybe that's our solution, Andrew. Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16289856510554336990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-81149543297822562402013-05-08T00:13:26.856-04:002013-05-08T00:13:26.856-04:00Jed, No, it doesn't. And this is what is so a...Jed, No, it doesn't. And this is what is so amazingly frustrating to me. The one thing you could always count on with conservative in the past was that they were honest. They might not have been great tacticians, but they were honest. Suddenly, there is this.<br /><br />This is how reputations are destroyed.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-56168508790670695222013-05-08T00:12:00.403-04:002013-05-08T00:12:00.403-04:00LL, That is very true. Mexico is running out of p...LL, That is very true. Mexico is running out of people, so the chances of another wave are close to zero. In fact, they've been net zero from Mexico for several years.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-73608231457702703362013-05-08T00:09:46.458-04:002013-05-08T00:09:46.458-04:00this sure as hell doesn't help :(this sure as hell doesn't help :(Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-10137096395773977312013-05-08T00:08:34.197-04:002013-05-08T00:08:34.197-04:00Truth: The population in Mexico is actually declin...Truth: The population in Mexico is actually declining while their economy is improving faster than ours is. The immigration problem is solving itself. <br /><br />And I agree with you on the lies. LLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05538854359365988863noreply@blogger.com