tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post7565386279230373529..comments2024-01-05T06:18:18.086-05:00Comments on CommentaramaPolitics: The Great White SouthAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-38506099892534781512013-05-12T06:35:06.752-04:002013-05-12T06:35:06.752-04:00T-Rav said:
Basically, the only way to refute thi...T-Rav said:<br /><br />Basically, the only way to refute this story is to suggest that white Southerners were starting to change their position on the GOP, and perhaps civil rights as well. And one of the best-kept secrets in the political conversation is that, as a matter of fact, they were. <br />----------<br />Given that legal black slavery (renamed peonage after the Civil War) didn't completely die out until the 1940s (with a push from the federal government) I suspect without federal intervention, Jim Crow would have gone on for several decades at least.<br /><br />I'm not saying if the law changed tomorrow Jim Crow would be reborn (public thinking has changed) but if it hadn't been killed, it might still be with us (some of that thinking changed due to the changes in the law).<br /><br />Anyway, I agree that its unfair to claim that the modern South is the same as South of the 60's. By all indications, people care about ideology nowadays, not race. The Democrats used to be America's conservative party (in a social sense, if not an economic one) and have moved to the left on a range of issues while the Republicans have moved to the right.<br /><br />Political parties (both of them as anyone familiar with the ad showing the gold toothed Allen West punching an old white woman ad can attest) often used racially tinged attacks to dismiss their opponents, but they embrace people of any race who share their values. <br /><br />Both Clarence Thomas and Obama have lots of admirers, but I bet there is zero overlap between their admirers despite the fact they are the same race.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16124128949343301445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-41999673373176864572013-05-12T00:15:19.680-04:002013-05-12T00:15:19.680-04:00Trenton is a pit. So is Philly. So is Boston. I...Trenton is a pit. So is Philly. So is Boston. I do like DC a lot and I like downtown NYC, but not the 'burbs.<br /><br />I like western cities a lot. Everything is newer and cleaner and better spaced.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-1778444558414268402013-05-12T00:06:44.057-04:002013-05-12T00:06:44.057-04:00tryanmax, although I have visited a lot of the cou...tryanmax, although I have visited a lot of the country, I haven't been west of OKC in about ten years, so I really can't say a lot about western cities. There are a lot of eastern cities that I like, though (NYC)--and also many that I despise (Trenton).T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-6477201217672793572013-05-11T22:28:41.302-04:002013-05-11T22:28:41.302-04:00T-Rav, hard to say. Judging from the maps, it'...T-Rav, hard to say. Judging from the maps, it's a bad thing. Though I've always had a greater affinity for eastern cities over western cities. tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-1237261817191929892013-05-11T18:33:05.915-04:002013-05-11T18:33:05.915-04:00Snape, they want you to think they're the cult...Snape, they want you to think they're the cultured and open-minded ones. Image is all that matters to them. T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-90867555300285765862013-05-11T18:31:24.298-04:002013-05-11T18:31:24.298-04:00tryanmax, I've never been to Omaha so I couldn...tryanmax, I've never been to Omaha so I couldn't say. I'm guessing you mean that as a bad thing?T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-89485303129378690952013-05-11T03:43:54.396-04:002013-05-11T03:43:54.396-04:00SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN! Nice article, T! I'm si...SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN! Nice article, T! I'm sick of the anti-South elitists. Not everyone down there is a racist! I thought Liberals were the cultured and open-minded ones... *sigh*<br /><br /><br />--"Plenty of evidence exists that already by the '50s, many Southerners, especially younger ones, were changing their minds on segregation, with church organizations in particular, including the Presbyterians and Southern Baptists, coming out against it. And it would be many of these same people--young, religious, upwardly mobile--who would begin building a Southern GOP and the subsequent New Right/Religious Right."<br /><br />Great! Now, I can call anyone going against the "Religious Right", racist!Mr_Severus_Snapehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09114381805017025426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-6573131912884479852013-05-11T03:09:17.687-04:002013-05-11T03:09:17.687-04:00Very interesting maps. I think it's funny how ...Very interesting maps. I think it's funny how the captions keep insisting that racism isn't concentrated in any particular area. Um, try "the eastern half of the country" maybe? <br /><br />It does confirm one thing I've always said about home: Omaha is the western-most eastern city. tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-9583532444788963572013-05-11T01:24:13.934-04:002013-05-11T01:24:13.934-04:00T-Rav, I suspect that they are only tracking white...T-Rav, I suspect that they are only tracking white on black words. And even then, they've probably excluded words that are regional. For example, in Boston, I rarely heard the n-word, but I constantly heard substitutes -- and those were substitutes I never heard anywhere else in the country.<br /><br />As for the West, yes, their map looks pretty clean. But that doesn't surprise me because, honestly, you just don't get much racism out here. I can't tell you exactly why, but it's not an issue out here.<br />AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-80335669547953663872013-05-11T01:13:12.974-04:002013-05-11T01:13:12.974-04:00Andrew, it struck me as odd that there wouldn'...Andrew, it struck me as odd that there wouldn't be bright red in Boston or L.A., either. And I'm curious why terms like "mick," "dago," "guinea," etc. weren't tested. Are they just testing it for non-white groups?<br /><br />Still, the map does seem to verify earlier comments that you rarely hear racial invective in the West at large.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-58621659475489300382013-05-11T00:33:27.222-04:002013-05-11T00:33:27.222-04:00T-Rav, The map is wrong and I'll bet you I kno...T-Rav, The map is wrong and I'll bet you I know why. I'll bet you they only included certain words. How, for example, can Boston not be flaming red when I can tell you that racial epitaphs are as common there as "hello" is in other parts of the country.<br /><br />Also, nothing in LA?<br /><br />This looks like a map that was creating using only words that rural Southerners would use and it excluded the words you would hear in other places.<br />AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-92140803045508743492013-05-10T22:23:06.132-04:002013-05-10T22:23:06.132-04:00For whatever it's worth, here's an interes...For whatever it's worth, here's an interesting set of maps charting racial and other intolerant tweets in the U.S. Lots of regional variations going on here. <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2322892/The-racist-map-America-Tweets-analyzed-offensive-keywords-reveal-hateful-parts-US-people-hated.html" rel="nofollow">LINK</a>T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-10822349374035069482013-05-10T20:43:17.528-04:002013-05-10T20:43:17.528-04:00Any time Bev! Don't worry, it's a busy tim...Any time Bev! Don't worry, it's a busy time of year. T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-61308503929724397812013-05-10T20:15:19.449-04:002013-05-10T20:15:19.449-04:00T-Rav - Thank you for this great article. I have b...T-Rav - Thank you for this great article. I have been busy today, so I haven't been able to join in the conversation today. I will have comments to add this weekend.BevfromNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14953050916932306270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-43331235012846199322013-05-10T18:17:08.712-04:002013-05-10T18:17:08.712-04:00Ellen, I never saw racism either in the West. Peo...Ellen, I never saw racism either in the West. People pretty much got along with each other very well regardless of race. Neighborhoods are largely mixed. And you never heard racial insults and I never heard anyone say they wouldn't do something just because someone was black or Hispanic or whatever.<br /><br />New York... that was different.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-63124779643939119722013-05-10T17:25:19.585-04:002013-05-10T17:25:19.585-04:00I grew up out West (West Coast and then Arizona) a...I grew up out West (West Coast and then Arizona) actually, and it's funny because we always got along. So when the Democrats started telling us that everyone was racist, I just scratched my head because I never saw it.ellenBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17868593283128151858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-78084998098551746952013-05-10T16:19:19.530-04:002013-05-10T16:19:19.530-04:00Folks, I'm not going to argue about this in T-...Folks, I'm not going to argue about this in T-Rav's article. The point to his article is a good one about the wrongful attempt to smear the South as racist, so let's focus on that, because that definitely should be debunked.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-59531283586281175212013-05-10T15:09:03.406-04:002013-05-10T15:09:03.406-04:00...abandoning the anti-Hispanic rhetoric, which is...<em>...abandoning the anti-Hispanic rhetoric, which is really intense. Ann Coulter today equated them all with criminals and abortionists.</em><br /><br />Andrew, could you reference which Ann Coulter piece you are referring to, because if it's the one at her website, she says nothing about hispanics as a race whatsoever. <br /><br />Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16289856510554336990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-88092050658247327492013-05-10T14:46:21.153-04:002013-05-10T14:46:21.153-04:00Patriot, regarding your first comment (and sorry i...Patriot, regarding your first comment (and sorry it took so long to get back to you, by the way), the clever invention of certain people in academia is, if you should complain about getting tagged with the "racist" label, that itself becomes evidence of racism, expressed in "supposedly neutral language." It's heads I win, tails you lose.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-67165591235699732872013-05-10T14:43:10.839-04:002013-05-10T14:43:10.839-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-55015059864680129762013-05-10T14:06:59.177-04:002013-05-10T14:06:59.177-04:00Andrew....Am I to understand that conservs need to...Andrew....Am I to understand that conservs need to push back against the smears, lies, demonization and outright b.s. from the leftists (media) and not resort in kind sometime? Must we only..."Moreover, if Coulter were pushing back against a narrative, she would be using facts, not imagery, and she wouldn't be using those images to paint a broad brush picture of all illegal immigrants"...follow this line of defense? That's worked real well for us in the past!<br /><br />Oh, but we'll be stooping to their level, you might rejoinder. I believe we've lost the culture war due to just this kind of "broad brush" that the left uses against us. What the hell is wrong with picking up some of the crap they throw at us and use the same tactics against them?<br /><br />I thin it's great we have someone like a Coulter who can take on the left in their own backyards, all the while defending her theses with facts (read some of her books which are well researched for the most part). I for one am tired of being portrayed as a racist, bigoted, misogynist troglodyte hater because I have worked hard, sacrificed and have an intact family. If one of the fighters for our side goes over the top every now and then I say good on them.<br /><br />BTW...I'm not a Religious Right fanatic for believing that abortion is morally wrong and harmful to society. What began as "safe, legal and rare" has turned into what Margeret Sanger and the Progressives envisioned and created a hundred years ago.....a means of weeding out the undesirables in society (the Negroes). By fighting against that, we are labelled every hateful name in the book. <br /><br />I believe there are many among our ilk who are "mad as hell and aren't going to take it any more!" So I say, go get 'em Coulter, Limbaugh, Levin, Savage and the rest of those radicals on the right who are using the Left's own weapons against them. To paraphrase the 'Chicago Way'...<br /><br /> Malone: You said you wanted to get Capone. Do you really wanna get him? You see what I'm saying is, what are you prepared to do?<br />Ness: Anything within the law.<br />Malone: And *then* what are you prepared to do? If you open the can on these worms you must be prepared to go all the way. Because they're not gonna give up the fight, until one of you is dead.<br />Ness: I want to get Capone! I don't know how to do it.<br />Malone: You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That's* the *Chicago* way! And that's how you get Capone. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I'm offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?<br />Ness: I have sworn to capture this man with all legal powers at my disposal and I will do so.<br />Malone: Well, the Lord hates a coward. <br /><br />Substitute 'The Left' for 'Capone' and you have what should be our side's approach. Instead, we stand there bemoaning the fact that our side sometimes exaggerates and demonizes too. I say so what.....we've lost the war and things won't change short of a societal shift due to some calamitous eventPatriothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01533169053860540075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-69090340642397891152013-05-10T12:00:39.752-04:002013-05-10T12:00:39.752-04:00Thanks tryanmax. The "everything you thought ...Thanks tryanmax. The "everything you thought you knew is wrong" line is exactly right, and the more time I've spent with historians, the higher I've come to value it. It doesn't change minds right away--at least, not among liberals--but it does make the more honest ones start thinking hard about what they do and don't know. It's not just about winning the center, it's about making the other side doubt itself.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-30622240129846003532013-05-10T11:57:50.950-04:002013-05-10T11:57:50.950-04:00Anthony, I don't doubt that, and it's perf...Anthony, I don't doubt that, and it's perfectly understandable to take that line. It's only worth mentioning in this regard because of the contention you frequently hear that Northerners are enlightened and egalitarian about race, while Southerners are just itching to burn crosses. In truth, racism can be found in abundance on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line. That's the main point here.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-85534355290096862452013-05-10T11:46:17.538-04:002013-05-10T11:46:17.538-04:00T-Rav said:
Also, Kit, I've often wondered if...T-Rav said:<br /><br />Also, Kit, I've often wondered if the people who praise Northern soldiers, for being the avenging right arm of freedom and progress, are aware how many of them deserted after word of the Emancipation Proclamation got out. (The answer would be a lot.) <br />------------<br /><br />I doubt most people would look a gift horse in the mouth. Lincoln started the war to preserve the Union, not to end slavery, but the fact he ended slavery was what mattered to most (then and now).Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16124128949343301445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6251675227852122352.post-77025569046545421992013-05-10T11:30:48.771-04:002013-05-10T11:30:48.771-04:00T-Rav, Coulter is still using anecdotal outliers t...T-Rav, Coulter is still using anecdotal outliers to make a case against the illegal immigrant population as a whole. A much more honest line of attack would be to point out common harms caused by a majority of illegal immigrants. But she can't do that, because those harms would be recognized as stemming from their situation as an underclass and also point to the ways in which certain American citizens are exploiting that situation, both of which would bolster the position she is arguing against. tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.com