Monday, July 1, 2013

Debunking A Few Arguments

I like to think of our audience as a cut above. Indeed, it makes me happy that you all like to understand what is really going on rather than just running with the mob. So in light of that, let me offer a few more tidbits to add to your knowledge of politics and government. In particular, let me debunk a couple arguments you see used a lot these days. Before we begin, however, let me point out that this is not a defense of the Rubio bill, though I will discuss that because that is the context in which these arguments are arising at the moment. My point is to help you understand why some common arguments made against many bills are nonsense.

“It’s a 1,000 pages long!”: You hear this a lot these days. It first gained prominence with Obamacare and now it’s being used with the Rubio bill: “It’s a 1,000 pages long!” and “Why do they need a bill that long?!” Arg.

Bills are long because they need to be to get the job done because everything Congress doesn’t explain in the bill is left up to the President to decide. Take the Rubio bill. We could whack off large parts of it by just writing, "Secure the border." But does that mean anything? No. That doesn’t tell the executive which border, how to do it, or what we mean by secure -- and don’t think this is just "lawyer games" with me trying to find ambiguity in things "common sense should tell us everybody knows."

Seriously, you tell me: what does "secure" mean? Does it mean no one can cross without permission? Does it mean anyone who does cross will be rounded up? Within how many days? What do we do with them when we catch them? Lock them up or send them home? How? Where do you send them if you don't know where they came from? What agency will do all of this? What money will they have to do it? What happens if you grab an American by mistake? Do the people you grab have a right of appeal? Under what legal standard? Where do they appeal or can they just pick a court? Do they need to be convicted before we send them home? That's a lot of questions. At least we know what "the border" means though, right? Or do we. Does the border include Canada? What about US military bases overseas? What about foreign embassies here? Do we make exceptions for defectors? What is a defector? What about those who are already beyond the border when they go illegal -- like those who overstay a visa -- how do they fit into the idea of "the border"? Now that we mention it, what does overstay mean exactly? And how do we know they've overstayed? Is there a system somewhere? Who runs it? Who follows up to make sure people are gone?

Every one of those questions requires that written direction be added to the bill. If you don't do that, you run the risk that the courts will invalidate the law for not giving the executive adequate guidance on how to implement the law -- this is because the executive implements the law, but cannot make the law. If too much is left to the executive, then courts will strike it down as allowing the president to make the law. Moreover, even if it isn't struck down, do you really want Obama answering all those questions himself? Do you see now why these things are as long as they are? Claiming that the law should be short and easy makes for a great soundbite appeal to "common sense," but is really only evidence that the person doesn't understand how government (AND THE CONSTITUTION) works.

Also, as an aside, these bills aren't nearly as long as you are told. When Congress puts out a bill, it uses 25 lines per page and heavy indenting. The result is that you get a little over 100 words per page on average, as compared to 250 words per page on a word processor or in a Harry Potter novel. So that 1,000 pages is really only 400, and much of it is repetitive. What matters is not the word count, but what the words say, and people trying to scare you with the page count are basically conceding they don't know how to scare you with the substance of the bill.

“It’s Incomprehensible!”: When you read a law, a lot of it will look like gibberish to the untrained eye, but it's not. The US Code is a lot like a computer program. When you add a new law, you typically make minor tweaks to other existing laws and you often define the terms in your new law by referencing existing laws because all of the nation's laws need to harmonize. If each law stood alone within the code, the already-enormous code would be many times larger and full of fluff, and the chance of a contradiction would rise significantly. Referencing existing laws reduces those problems. That's why laws often look like logic puzzles. But these things are easy to understand if you take the time to look up the references to other laws. Unfortunately, the people making this claim are more interested in feigning ignorance than making legitimate arguments -- like Eric Cantor who criticized the Rubio bill and then said this weekend that he hadn't read it because "It's a 1,000 pages long!!" That statement tells us exactly what we need to know about Cantor.

“It’s Got Waivers!”: One of the early criticisms of the Rubio bill (and Obamacare) was that it included a lot of waivers and exemptions. The critics latched onto this as proof that the whole thing was a shell game. That's not true, however. In fact, despite initially screaming about 400+ waivers, the critics ultimately were only able to point to one that raised some concern. But why have waivers at all? Three reasons:
1. When a law allows no exceptions, the courts will often find it unconstitutional because it denies those targeted by the law due process under the 5th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution. Those Amendments guarantee people the right to challenge government action that applies to them and which violates their rights. The exceptions and waivers are often made to ensure that the requirements of the Constitution are not ignored, i.e. to preserve rights, because failing to do that would lead to the invalidation of the entire law. For example, suppose it would violate the Constitution to deport someone who is 9 months pregnant and might lose the child on the journey. If there is no waiver or exception excluding such people from deportation, the court would strike down the entire deportation provision... or maybe even the entire law.

2. Moreover, if the new law conflicts with existing laws in some way, the court may strike down the new law depending on various factors. Once again, waivers and exceptions prevent this.

3. Waivers are needed to make the system work. Suppose the law says you need to complete the fence by June 1. If you're 99% finished on May 30, then you need a waiver to be able to finish the fence. Otherwise, the law would expire, work would stop, and the whole thing would need to start over. Waivers and exemptions are ways to make rigid requirements less rigid so you can account for changes you encounter along the way.
This is why the fact of the inclusion of waivers and exceptions is meaningless. What matters is what the waivers realistically allow, not that they exist.

Just Follow The Constitution: People who say this typically have no idea what the Constitution provides or how it works. The Constitution divides power between the federal government, the state governments, and the people. It talks about the procedures of government. It rarely delves into the substance of government. And when it does, it invariably gives more power than people want to admit. The Commerce Clause, for example, gives the Congress the power to regulate anything that affects interstate commerce. That is an incredibly broad power and saying, "follow the constitution" is not a meaningful restriction. Immigration is the same. In fact, consider immigration.

Congress’s power to regulate immigration comes entirely from this sentence in Article I, Section 8: Congress shall have the power “To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization.” That's it. So tell me, if someone says, “We should just follow the Constitution,” what exactly does that mean? Under this provision, Congress can pass anything it wants regarding immigration provided it is "uniform." And before you say, “that means everyone needs to be treated the same,” actually it doesn’t mean that at all. Uniform in this case means as between the states. In other words, one set of rules that will apply in all states; it says nothing about how we treat people who are here as citizens, visitors or illegals. Most other issues work the same way. The Constitution is rarely informative, except to the extent it tells us which part of the government has been granted the unlimited power to act this time.

Anyway, the point here is not about immigration or Obamacare, it's about legislation generally. The arguments above are false soundbites designed to make something sound like it is evil or obvious. The truth, however, is that these arguments are nothing more than misdirection. So when people pound the table saying these things, challenge them: ask them what the substantive problem really is... odds are they can't tell you.

40 comments:

  1. Andrew....Very informative article. I've heard that many of these new huge bills (ACA; Immigration) are being written by external to government groups. Is that true? Groups like lobbyists, activists, unions, companies, etc. If so, that would seem to generate a lot of the angst as these groups want to make sure their side is pre-eminent in the law I would think. Do you see anything wrong with this practice, if in fact it happens like that?

    Second, I believe it's the way the politicians and pundits/media spin a bill's language that creates confusion. Or is it necessary confusion in order to get it accepted by the people? And this is the problem many have. We are told a bill will accomplish something good...i.e., "If you like your current health care plan you can keep it." Yet when the actual substance and language of the bill comes out, we find that the opposite is in fact true. Maybe this has been the problem with politicians (lawyers?) all along. They will tell you one thing to get it passed, when in fact, the language in the actual bill is such that what they tell us is NOT in fact going to happen. By then it's too late.

    I'm not a lawyer, just a yeoman, but this obfuscation appears to me to be the biggest issue with these huge bills. Reference the immigration bill where one section will say one thing, and then another will directly contradict the earlier section (or clarify it?).

    Finally, the amendments that usually deal with "pork" for the legislative districts/states. Why can't we have a mechanism that disallows any funds other than for the actual bill? (I know....rhetorical question)

    Bottom line....Like someone said, watching bill become law is like watching sausage being made. The deals, sleight of hand, graft and general all-around lies are what makes these bills unpalatable to many Americans.

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  2. I realize that there are a number of competing interests in the immigration scenario and that no president has secured the border. It's well beyond an Obama problem from a historical context. However, rather than try and push an omnibus bill though, a series of measures would have passed if phased over time --- but nobody wants to do that. Instant gratification is the political way.

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  3. I've often heard the Homestead Act of 1862 cited as an example of elegant, brief legislation that should be a model for all other legislation. It's somehow attained mythic status in that regard. It's often credited with being written on one page. That would be, front and back, densely packed on a giant sheet. By current standards, I estimate it would take at least 13 pages today. Still short, yes, but that's 13 pages to simply say you can have a parcel of land if you live and work it for five years. ("Why cain't ya just say that?") So there's one more myth.

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  4. Very helpful, Andrew!

    I'm more disgusted about the pork that got attached to the bill. I'd like to see a little light shine on that.

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  5. Patriot,

    Brace yourself... the legislative process is much, much worse than you think. Most Congress critters are morons. They see their job as occupying a seat. They don't know the first thing about legislation. So what happens is that legislation gets written entirely be committee staffers. These are often 20 year old kids who are far from the best or brightest... they do have an abundance of arrogance though. Since they aren't that bright, they ask for input from lobbyists. The lobbyists will actually give them legislation they would like to see passed (and will tell the staffers how great it will be for their constituents). These kids then work that into whatever bill they are writing. It is the rare Congress critter will actually be involved in the process or even read the bill, even after it's finished.

    The confusion actually stems from the fact that few people involved in discussing the process know what is going on. The Congress critters haven't read or thought through what they are doing -- they just rely on the promises of the lobbyists. The reporters are just as stupid. They simple repeat what they are told and then spin it. Add in bloggers, pundits, talk radio... who simply want to upset you, so they run with rumor and never bother reading the bill -- they also push the idea of confusion to scare you.

    In the meantime, the bill is sitting there for anyone to look at and they are rarely complicated. It just requires actually reading the bill and understanding the layout. But only a handful of people are willing to do that.

    As for the pork, the problem is there is no way to restrict what people can put into a bill. And even if there was, it's easy to work around that.

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  6. Oh, and Patriot, it's always been this way. This is nothing new.

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  7. LL, I don't think it's instant gratification at all, I think it's a lack of trust. The Republicans don't trust the Democrats to secure the border and the Democrats don't trust the Republicans to do anything else.

    Even now, the Republicans are screaming: "Border first!" and the tests they are setting up for securing the border are practical impossibilities. AND at the same time, they are screaming, "No citizenship EVER!"

    Agreeing to secure the border in that regard would be intensely stupid from a negotiation standpoint, especially as the Republicans keep slitting their wrists every time they start screaming about the issue. If I were a Democrat, I'll be happy to keep poking the drunken bear.

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  8. Writer X, You're welcome!

    I don't like pork at all. But when you're tying to win votes, that's how legislation works. In all honesty, if conservatives had acted in good faith, they could have stopped the pork and they could have done better on border security. But by taking themselves out of the process ("I ain't EVER gonna vote for it!!") they forced the proponents to go buy votes they could otherwise have abandoned.

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  9. tryanmax, Much of our view of the legislative process is myth. We see these people of the past as great statesmen who spoke eloquently and put country ahead of party and then passed these perfect pieces of short, pork-free, legislation that solves whatever problem the nation was facing.

    Yeah... none of that was true. Take the period of which you speak. Most legislation was passed at the behest of robber barons or Southern racists. It was intended to steal land, crush farmers, crush opponents, hand money to railroads, rig the gold market, or keep blacks from attaining power. It was passed by drunken crooks who attacked each other in savage ways that wouldn't even be acceptable today. Andrew Jackson was so offended by attacks against the fidelity of his wife that many believe that some of his nastiest policies were done simply out of spite.

    As for the eloquent simple legislation where everyone put the interests of the country ahead of everything else, that's how we got slavery, separate but equal, bloody Kansas, agencies packed with political appointees, etc. Moreover, the real operative legislation of the past was no shorter -- budgets, criminal law, anti-trust, etc.

    And ultimately, there is a fundamental difference between running a country where the Federal government is a tiny organization of thieves who do little more than hand out tax money and our government today which runs things that didn't even exist at the time. I'm sure that laws in Ancient Greece were even shorter.

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  10. ...a series of measures would have passed if phased over time...

    I disagree. Like Andrew said, it's a trust issue. The smallest bill you could ever hope to pass would have two measures, a tit-for-tat arrangement where the people who don't like part A get part B in exchange. But since very few issues break down to two sides (despite portrayals in the media) you end up with polygonal bills that trade several sides at once.

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  11. tryanmax, That's true too. Very few issues are two sided. And the immigration issue is definitely one of those with many sides. You have questions of how many guest workers to let in and at what levels -- business, labor, and the socialists disagree. You have questions about how much citizenship to grant -- the right is split on this. You have a question of what will it take to secure the border, which again raises different opinions -- some want a fence, others want something that works. Budgets and technology are both issues there. Different states have different goals in the process. Etc.

    This really is something where you need to handle it all together because there's no way to pass any one part individually... which is why the chief strategy of the people trying to kill it has been "let's do this in parts."

    Ironically, Obamacare could have been done in parts, but there Obama wanted credit more than anything.

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  12. The Obamacare bill will be studied for generations because it is the exception that proves so many legislative rules.

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  13. Obamacare is really a bill that should be studied. It's a classic example of how to do almost everything wrong... and I mean EVERYTHING.

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  14. Well, I ran across this and think it sums up not only this article, but everything wrong with Washington and the media.

    "It's a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
    ― Arthur Conan Doyle

    (not sure if this is from one of the Holmes stories)

    -Rustbelt

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  15. Rustbelt, Very true. But it's also so much easier to spout whatever you want when you aren't encumbered by facts. Unfortunately, the public doesn't have a history of holding people to the facts, so everyone gets away with it.

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  16. Hey everyone! I've been out of town and actually in a place where I have no wifi! Who knew such places existed!

    I agree about Obamacare. It is the prime example of how not to do...anything. There is nothing wrong with a long bill as long as our legislators understand what is in the legislation. I think that is what scared everyone. It was rushed through like no other bill with no real deliberation - that "polygonal bill". The immigration bill seems to be more polygonal and I think that Rubio has done a good job in selling it which is key to any massive legislation. Bill Clinton could do it. Sadly, Obama does not think he is above the process.

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  17. Bev, I would say that I'm shocked such places exist, except I've run into them myself!

    On Obamacare, there was definitely a huge problem in that people didn't know what was in it. In fact, we're still find out about it now. That's the problem with the way they did it though and you see the consequences in all the unpleasant surprises now.

    Rubio didn't have that problem because he released his bill with plenty of time (months) for people to examine it and point out the problems, which they then tried to fix.

    Rubio has also done a great job of selling the polygonal bill -- and even more, writing it. That's why the "gang" process worked so well because it let them address different interests and then keep either side from blowing it up. Now it just needs to get a vote in the House.

    All in all, comparing the two bills really does give a classic example of how to do something and how not to do something.

    And those are the kinds of lessons to watch for in the future.

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  18. Off topic, but...

    Countdown to Catastrophe

    JULY 1, 1914 (99 years ago today…)

    The bodies of Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife, Countess Sohpie Chotek, arrive at the port city of Trieste aboard the Austrian battleship ‘Viribus Unitis.’
    In Vienna, Hungarian Prime Minister Tisza meets with Emperor Franz Joseph at the latter’s palace, urging him to speak with Kaiser Wilhelm II at Franz Ferdinand’s funeral (scheduled for Friday, July 3rd), and work to avoid a war with Serbia (in which Austria-Hungary would be seen as the aggressor), while still strengthening ties with Germany.
    Meanwhile, German journalist Victor Naumann meets with Austrian Foreign Ministry Chief of Staff Count Alexander Hoyos (the #2 man) at the Ballplatz.* Naumann tells Hoyos that the German military is interested in a preventative war against Russia before the Great Program** is completed (though this was actually routine war planning) and that the German Foreign Ministry feels that Austria-Hungary would be better off attacking Serbia quickly. Naumann, however, did not actually speak with those in charge; he claimed to have spoken with at least one subordinate. He also tells Hoyos that the Kaiser could be brought around to this line of thinking if pushed by the right people. (Note: some historians think Naumann was secretly working for the German ambassador in an unofficial, roundabout way, but this has never been determined.)

    *- The Ballplatz is the official residence of Austria’s highest Cabinet Minister and, at the time, home of the Austrian Foreign Office. (Today it’s the home of the Chancellor of Austria.) Saying that something happened at the Ballplatz would be like us saying, “today at the White House…”

    **-The ‘Great Program’ was a Russian plan financed through French loans to modernize railways and weapons production that started in 1913. (France, Russia’s ally, was worried about Russia’s backwardness and ability to mobilize swiftly in a modern war.) A topic often brought up at war plan meetings in Germany was the idea of attacking and defeating Russia before the program was complete.

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  19. My apologies, I forgot to sign the above post.

    -Rustbelt

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  20. So Rustbelt, are you predicting a repeat?

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  21. Tough call, Andrew.

    Europeans know how to protest. And I'm sure the Euro-socials will back war, jump up and down, carry signs, march, and call for it as crazy as they can...then stop in their tracks when they realize there's actual work involved when it comes to conflict. Hm...maybe their union rules allow actual intrigue or taking up arms ONLY following a full vote of locals 191 through 653 and a guaranteed contract from Brussels giving all parties involved a pay raise coupled with a lowering of the retirement age so they can get out of the reserves faster.

    (This would probably be a good joke, except that the Dutch army is itself fully unionized. After seeing pictures of them, I think they're hoping the enemy will see their beards and mistake them for Vikings, running away screaming. Seriously, when I saw footage of them running around, I immediately thought of Dr. Zoidberg. An arm of one- very stupid sea creature. Hurray!)

    Then again...it would be something to watch a war that starts every day after a late breakfast, stops for 15 minutes, then lunch, 15 minutes, then tea, followed by dinner, time off for croissants, then stop for supper, and then a cheese course. I'm betting the first country to actually finish their march to the front line gets declared the winner before they strike for another contract.

    God help Europe.

    -Rustbelt

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  22. LOL! You are in fine form tonight. Zoidberg... nice!

    I think European armies are a contradiction in terms. They're more like unarmed-gun-carrying social workers. I actually suspect that a single NASCAR audience could conquer Europe if they cared enough.

    Fortunately for Europe, neither China nor NASCAR need the hassle of trying to feed 400 million lazy Europeans.

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  23. Thanks, Andrew.

    NASCAR fans are truly an overlooked force to be reckoned with. (Though, being the cautiously conservative fellow I am, I'd keep a crack team of special ops hockey fans in reserve just in case any of the Euro-trash start fighting dirty- like the Belgians breaking out the hot waffle irons. So uncivilized.)

    By the way, I found this clip of Pinky and the Brain. I absolutely dare you not to love Brain's line around 3:55.

    LINK

    -Rustbelt

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  24. "People without jobs, Pinky." LOL!

    I can't imagine Belgians fighting dirty. Maybe crying and refusing to share their pot. The ones you need to watch out for are the Brits... knife fighting drunks.

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  25. Andrew said..."The ones you need to watch out for are the Brits... knife fighting drunks."

    Worse. Knife fighting drunks whose soccer team just lost the big match. That would make the London riots of 2 years ago look like a game of Stratego with half the pieces missing.

    -Rustbelt

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  26. Rustbelt, Any excuse will do. I read their papers every day and I'm shocked at the things that are going on over there. Every day, their papers are full of the kinds of things we see only from the occasional crackhead over here. And comparing the size of their population to ours, and how common this appears over there compared to here, I can safely say that something has gone really, really wrong over there.

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  27. Hey! Leave the Belgians alone! They have enough problems just deciding which language to speak to care about taking over the EU...

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  28. Good point, Bev. They do have a difficult choice: Dutch, German, Ned Flanders, Wallon and Arabic.

    But if they ever solve that, they will one day rise and try to conquer the world! They already own most of its beer companies!

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  29. Andrew, based on your comment, maybe it's possible the entire continent is just on crack. I don't know. I'm just jumping to conclusions here. Perhaps, in an effort to prevent the spread of "British Teeth Syndrome," Europeans decided to follow our lead by fluoridizing their water. Only, when the plant (located naturally in one of the first socialist countries west of the iron curtain) came up short in supply, the bosses used the old Soviet method of filling the containers with whatever they had on hand- in this case, coca. The results are what we now see. And instead of fixing the problem, which obviously would've involved more work, they just decided to let everything run that way forever. It couldn't be THAT bad, could it?

    Once again, this is just pure speculation. But like you said, there is something really wrong over there. And this is probably as good an excuse as any.

    -Rustbelt

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  30. Rustbelt, That would explain a good deal!

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  31. Oh, Belgium. So adept at waffles. So inept at everything else.

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  32. I wouldn't say they're bad at everything. They've been nice hosts to the German Army on two separate occasions.

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  33. And what do you suppose they served the Germans at breakfast? I rest my case.

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  34. Excellent point! :)

    "Your waffle, Herr Oberst. Would you like a beer with that? Perhaps a map to point you toward France? Remember that Belgium does have gift shops on the French border for your convenience."

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  35. tryanmax said..."And what do you suppose they served the Germans at breakfast? I rest my case."

    Son of a diddly! See? I can speak Ned Flanders, too!

    Well, they did have plenty of practice. Don't forget they were also a longtime territory of Austria and hosted Napoleon's French Army as well. (That sounded embarrassing just typing it.) I'm surprised half the country didn't become butlers.

    -Rustbelt

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  36. Uh... half the country is butlers (at least according to Hollywood) and the other half are apparently hookers. So yeah, it seems they have been influenced by their past.

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  37. “To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization.”

    Andrew

    We have got Obama now. His entire immigration policy to date can be thrown out. After all, there is nothing 'uniform" about it.

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  38. As to the immigration bill I went to the Bigs the other day and was dismayed to see all the comments that Rubio is Rump Roast, put a fork in him and he is done.
    :
    I do listen to Mark Levin (I know you are upset with him on this issue) but of all the talk hosts he is a lawyer and does his best to explain the law and to that extent is more than rhetoric. But lately I am finally a little disappointed with him as well when the bill got passed and went to the house.
    :
    All of the length of the bill and waiver arguments you mention above are just rhetoric that is masking the general dislike of the bill. I think in the end it comes down to one thing. The granting of amnesty. Many people feel that it is unfair and that these people will get something to which they are not entitled.
    :
    Before we dismiss that as nativism though I would suggest you consider the thoughts of my coworker a Canadian who live here under work visa who has been trying to become a citizen for 15 years. He married a US citizen and he is still going through the hoops. Partly this is his fault because he decided a year after getting married to change from using the company's sponsorship to his wife as the basis for citizenship which caused delays. He is mad because he sees illegals getting in the line that he has had to fight his life for. So I think we should admit that in this sense it is not fair but then again nothing is fair or can be fair.
    :
    The problem I am having is that the GOP both the hoi polloi screaming the bill is treacherous and the House Republicans are so steeped in the negativity or avoiding the path of the negativitiy's salvos that they are missing an opportunity to do something positive.
    :
    This bill could easily be rewritten to change the amnesty provisions to guest worker provisions grating work visas that are not green cards. All the good things that Rubio wants (and they are good) getting people into a legal status, getting them to pay taxes, providing for what benefits the qualify for, stopping identity fraud to get status etc could be accomplished.
    :
    Congress could even put in a provision that the guest worker could then apply for green card status and eventual citizenship along with everyone else but they'd ahve to go through the same requirements as my Canadian coworker in trying to obtain Citizenship.
    :
    This would be to my mind a good compromise that the dems if they demogogue against it could be called out on.
    :
    I don't know!

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  39. Indi, Sadly, I avoid the Bigs like a plague these days because are spewing lies, hate, paranoia and idiocy. I haven't seen a single thing written there in months that was even close to accurate and which didn't seek to destroy some conservative. They've become Huffpo's wet dream.

    On immigration...

    The problem I am having is that the GOP both the hoi polloi screaming the bill is treacherous and the House Republicans are so steeped in the negativity or avoiding the path of the negativitiy's salvos that they are missing an opportunity to do something positive.

    That is the issue. And it's not a "Republican" issue, it's a "conservative" issue. And fixing the bill would have required good faith, something conservatives no longer possess.

    Allow me to be blunt. All these self-described "genuine conservatives" don't want to solve this problem. They are throwing a tantrum, and they are sounding like segregationists in the process. They are saying racist and stupid things. They are lying through their teeth. They are stabbing each other in the back as heretics. And they are reveling in witch hunting. There is no logic coming from opponents, there is only anger, and there is no good faith. They are hateful children and that is how they are coming across to the public.

    The end result of this appears more and more likely that conservatives will deeply alienate Hispanics, blacks, Asians, women, and moderates. They will guarantee themselves permanent minority status and they will revel in being martyrs.

    For those of us who actually care about conservative ideology, this is a disgusting and deeply disturbing moment. These self-appointed "genuine conservatives" are destroying the very ideology that made this country great.

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  40. Andrew
    I don’t like the rhetoric on either side but I feel the establishment has earned this fight. They have always been Rockefeller Liberal Republicans at heart, OK with the socialism of Nixon. Wage and Price controls under him pushed the health insurance companies into employer driven plans that eventually led to the fiasco that is Obamacare. They have always secretly attacked “conservative” candidates who got into office on grass roots support and not through lobbying and money for not being nuanced enough to realize that you just can’t eliminate government programs just like that.
    :
    With the dire economic problems in 2008 and the election of Obama those grass roots conservatives finally nationalized their voice through the Tea Party. This was something they fought early on when they started losing primaries. Karl Rove throwing O’Donnell under the bus the eve of her election was an unforgiveable example of this. The 2011 witch hunts of the IRS did not include establishment groups. No one in the IRS for instance questioned Rove’s groups. Instead the brunt of the pressure from Senators mostly DNC but with a few GOP to hit political groups because of the Citizens United case came down squarely on the activist Tea Party groups who had as their political base the support of people and did not have the lobbyist’s money.
    :
    It has been demonstrated to people who think of themselves as genuine conservatives time and again with the budget and sequester battles where the first bill backed by Boehner was 17 billion in token cuts dwarfed by other taxes and spending increases. Sure they lectured us about needing to compromise but they never pushed a bill that conservatives would want and never left any room for negotiation and compromise.
    :
    I know a lot of people that like Rubio’s plan as stated but just don’t trust that this will be done. Not to mention that the GOP won’t even acknowledge that major flaw in it which is that it is completely unfair and unethical in the way it treats a legal alien who has been already waiting and in some cases more than 13 years. Calling this bill unfair is not racist it is reality. There may be reasons we need to do it but no one says look we understand that this has these problems but it does A B C. Instead for the most part it is we have to do this or Hispanics won’t like us and we can’t discuss any talk of not doing it. This is not a way to start reasoned debate and quite frankly after all the other crap that has gone on before the establishment has zero credibility with someone who thinks of themselves as a genuine conservative. Conservatives are attacked by the lobbyist crowd of the GOP and it is pretty clear that their input is not wanted. This I think will continue to exacerbate this situation in many issues because the GOP establishment in the end seems to care more about Power than Ideology. There is only so many time that you can kick a dog before it begins to snap at you.

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