Friday, November 30, 2012

Liberalism: Still Not Working

After Obama's re-election, many of us at Commentarama swore not to help the liberals or moderates in any way and to let them burn from their own bad decisions. And happily, it looks like that will be happening sooner rather than later. Observe.

The Liberal Mismanagement of Government Continues. This is even more evident at the state than the federal level. A study of the best- and worst-managed states in America revealed that 4 of the top 5 are Republican strongholds, just as 4 of the bottom 5 are deep, deep blue. California (surprise!) comes in dead last, with the nation's second-highest unemployment rate and its worst credit rating, while according to the Tax Foundation, its business tax climate is the third-worst. Rhode Island, Illinois, and New Jersey provided misery with its company, the Garden State enjoying a crushing debt of 91.6% of its percentage of revenue. North Dakota, Wyoming, Nebraska, and Utah, meanwhile, enjoy very low unemployment rates and levels of debt, with Moody's credit agency attributing the latter's stability to its "tradition of conservative fiscal management." Words the blue states don't understand, that is, because that would be racist and hurting the poor or something.

In other blue-state news, the city everyone loves to stay the heck out of--Detroit--has now become so chaotic that one Michigan state senator has proposed dissolving the city altogether and putting it under county administration. The good people of suburban Wayne County can't wait for that, I bet. And back in California, the city of San Bernardino is now being sued by the state's public-employee pension agency, which says that even though the city has declared bankruptcy, it is still required to pay those big, big pensions, even at the expense of education, police services, etc. The agency is also reportedly trying to prove that you can, in fact, extract blood from a stone. So I heard.

In the "Further Proof That Tax Hikes Are A Bad Idea" Department: The British government announced earlier this year that it's been forced to surrender on its 50% tax rate for millionaires. Well, it didn't actually say that, but it did announce a slight lowering of the rate to 45%. And not a moment too soon: the Daily Telegraph pointed out recently that the number of Britons declaring income of more than 1 million pounds (that's what they call "dollars," Americans) fell from about 16,000 in 2009-10 to 6,000 two years later, rebounding somewhat to 10,000 after the government's announcement. One Conservative MP argued that this policy cost the state 7 billion pounds in revenue.

The reason why should be obvious to everyone here--overtaxed rich people either move their income out of the country, take advantage of loopholes, or stop producing it altogether--but sadly, it's not so obvious to our fellow Yanks. (My apologies to all Southerners reading the blog.) The latest ABC/WashPo poll shows that 60 percent of Americans, including 39 percent (!) of Republicans, favor raising taxes on those making over $250,000 a year--far outnumbering those who favor entitlement reform, even simply raising the Medicare eligibility age from 65 to 67. Good job, citizens. The $80 billion a year that tax hike will bring in should keep the federal government running. For, like, a couple weeks.

And Speaking of the Middle Class: Has anyone figured out yet whether the Obama administration really believes it can solve the debt crisis by heavily taxing the rich and not touching anyone else, or if they're just lying to middle-class voters and letting them believe that? Because I honestly don't know. Anyway, clearly a lot of people do believe that--but maybe not for long. In January, the payroll tax rates set by Congress are set to increase by nearly half, a change which will cost the average middle-class household an extra $1,000 per year. Ironically, given that about 160 million people are in the income categories affected, this may well raise more revenue than the tax hikes on the rich--and thus the dirty little secret of American economics: the bulk of national wealth doesn't lie with the rich, it lies with the middle class. Needless to say, the Obama spokesmen aren't exactly publicizing this pending change.

So if you're middle class, you may be about to get screwed out of a bit more money (and I haven't even mentioned the jailhouse shiving that is the Alternative Minimum Tax). Sucks, I know, but hey: You broke it, you bought it. We did try to warn you, didn't we?

73 comments:

Liberals... not Andrew said...

T-Rav, Clearly you just don't get it. The rich just aren't paying their fair share. And sure, in the past the rich have always avoided taxes, but I'm sure that this time it will be different because... well, because. ;)

T-Rav said...

Dear Liberals...not Andrew, how could I be so foolish? Of course history doesn't matter; because you guys will it to be so, this time it will happen. Don't listen to me and my silly data.

K said...

T-Rav: You are making the assumption that the administration doesn't consider economic collapse and additional human misery a feature and not a bug. So far, BHO has followed the successful FDR algorithm that managed to effectively get him elected for life while wreaking havoc on the economy while using Hoover as the perpetual excuse.

Tennessee Jed said...

hell, even Clinton (Sir William of NY variety) admitted the middle class needed to be heavily taxed.

Anthony said...

The night of November 6th, it was clear that real reform wouldn't happen until at least 2016.

Patriot said...

T-Rav........I agree with K's assessment. So what?! If Zero goes off the fiscal cliff (gawd I hate how we put these idiotic phrases in our lexicon) then that is good for him. The Repugs will be blamed no matter what.

For example: Zero proposes solution - Repugs modify slightly - Zero accepts with "signing statement" that says "They didn't give me what I asked for, so any negatives from this deal are on the stoopid party's shoulders." Press laps it up.

6 months....1 year.....heck more like immediately....economy continues tanking, unemp rises, tax rates on mid class rise...things get even more expensive...ratings fall. Here we go again "How am I expected to fix the Bush mess when the repugs won't agree with my plan and keep pushing to save their rich friends?!"

Game....Set....Match Zero wins again and Stoopid Party gets the blame. Lather - Rinse - Repeat

tryanmax said...

I think the sentiment on the right has gotten pretty consistent since the election: let 0bama and the Democrats have their way and let them take the blame for it. The only issue is there doesn't seem to be any consensus on how to make sure the blame lands at their feet. To be sure, the MSM makes it extremely difficult, as almost any imaginable scenario can be twisted into Republicans' fault. About the only thing they can't say is that the GOP didn't warn them, and we know they would anyway if that's all they had.

T-Rav said...

K, I don't claim to know what's happening in Obama's head (I like to think it's what you hear if you stick a seashell to your ear). But I don't think he and his team of yes-men are actually trying to ruin everyone's lives. I think that Obama is what they call a "Third Way-er": a man who doesn't believe in the impossibility of a free lunch, who thinks that the right mix of capitalism and socialism will allow people to have everything they want with no long-term costs. See his campaign ads, see his rhetoric about "false choices," etc.

I think he really believes that with tax hikes on the rich, he can squeeze out enough wealth to fix everything. And that's what Third Wayers do: Just a little more, a little more, until we reach the happy medium. If the proposed tax hikes don't do the job, then there'll be another set of raises, and then another.

On the other hand, I also have no doubt that Obama sees America as the cause of most of the trouble in the world and wouldn't mind it if we were brought down to other countries' level (in the interest of "fairness" and all). Like I said, I don't know what goes on in his head. But I hesitate to say he's out to destroy America when there's a much simpler explanation at hand: He's an idiot.

T-Rav said...

Jed, seeing as how Clinton claimed at the DNC to "understand the math," I guess he would know, wouldn't he? (eyeroll)

T-Rav said...

Anthony, I guess it's possible that Obama could be impeached for Benghazi or just generally disrespecting the Constitution and Biden be forced to resign due to mental deficiency, making Boehner the new President. But otherwise, yeah, we're screwed for the near future.

darski said...

It would seem to me that the R party is dead anyway so why not drive over that cliff in a Hummer? Don't raise the ceiling... let the games begin.

Ooooh, "I'd pay real money to see that." Sayeth the good Dr. Mc

T-Rav said...

Patriot, I can't speak for others, but if the media is going to blame it all on us anyway--and they are--then why not give Obama everything he wants? Like we were discussing last night, give him the opportunity to take all the responsibility. We don't owe anyone anything.

BevfromNYC said...

Look, the R's are screwed either way unless we make it VERY clear that the Dems campaigned on tax hike/no cuts and a free lunch for all. I am still confused how Obama can say with a straight face that NOW he is NOT for sunsetting the "Bush Tax Cuts" when that is what he has pushed as the cause of all the ills of our economy! And as someone pointed out somewhere at sometime in the last few years, since it's now been over 10 years since these "tax cuts", whatever the "taxes" are, they can not longer be considered "cuts". Any "sunset" is just another name for "Middle Class Tax Increase". NY'ers will be particularly screwed by the $250K threshold because "Middle Class" in NY and most of the NorthEast IS upwards of $250K to about $500K. The catterwalling has already begun here.

Let the games begin...I've got my helmet and parachute ready for the cliff diving. Tell any Republican House Member you can find or contact to walk away. We The People WANT to go over that cliff. We conservatives are prepared for the worst - We're the Ants to their Grasshoppers.

T-Rav said...

tryanmax, I'm open to the idea some people have kicked around of a media boycott. Except, I would take it beyond just not watching or reading the big-name networks and papers; the GOP politicians ought to stop giving interviews to any of these outlets. They're going to make up stories anyway, so why bother appearing? It makes them look a lot less credible, and we'd be free of a lot of hassle.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, History can teach liberals nothing because they are sure that their ideas have never "really" been tried.

AndrewPrice said...

Patriot, That's the problem... "they didn't give me what I wanted."

Unless the Republicans make it clear they intend to give Obama exactly what he wants, then they will take the blame for what happens. That's why the current strategy really is so stupid. They are fighting him rhetorically, but then they'll basically give him what they want. That's the worst strategy possible.

T-Rav said...

darski, let's not go over in a Hummer. We're trying to be more environmental these days, you know. How about a Prius? :-)

AndrewPrice said...

By the way, let me point something out...

There may not be a real fiscal cliff... not like people think. If this happens, the Pentagon will struggle until the next budget gets passed. Ditto on Medicare. But they won't collapse.

Taxes will go up, but the economic effects won't be felt for some time. People don't need to pay those taxes for another year. And while companies will lay off, they won't do it on day one, they'll do it slowly over time... by which time the public has forgotten about the cliff.

It's like a cancer more than a bullet. The day you are shot, you die. The day you get cancer, you may be equally dead... but it takes months or years to know it.

So don't think that "going over" as people like Krauthammer are advocating will cause a bang. It will only make us look like chicken littles.

T-Rav said...

Bev, and yet most of those "middle-class" New Yorkers will keep voting Democratic, won't they? (sigh)

Nothing Obama does surprises me. He and everyone around him are fundamentally dishonest people, and they'll say whatever they have to to get political leverage over Republicans. And why should they be worried about saying the exact opposite now of what they said before? No one in the media will call them out on it.

I'm with you. Let's go over the cliff.

BevfromNYC said...

But Andrew - But what We WANT is steady slide down at the behest of the Democrat Party just in time for the lead up to the 2014 Election cycle, don't we?

T-Rav said...

Andrew, Word. Real socialism/Marxism has never really been tried, because Lenin got it wrong, then Stalin got it wrong, then Mao got it wrong, then Castro got it wrong. We can be socialist and democratic, so let's look ahead, never back.

rlaWTX said...

T-Rav: I like this plan, how do we get it to happen? Anyone have any fairy dust & wishing wells?
" I guess it's possible that Obama could be impeached for Benghazi or just generally disrespecting the Constitution and Biden be forced to resign due to mental deficiency, making Boehner the new President. "

BevfromNYC said...

T-Rav - This is very similar to what Netanyahu had to do before the UN this Fall.

He literally had to draw a picture, so that the world body could se a visual representation of when Iran is in their quest for a nuclear bomb.

It should be the same with our economy. We need a Depression for people understand that money does not grow on trees and that our fiscal trajectory will destroy us and our debt is unsustainable. AND we have tried to warn and tried to warn, so live it for a while so you will understand (until the next generation has to be taught the same lesson, of course). It happened in the Roaring '20's...exactly the same trajectory that lead us over a cliff into a Depression just like in the mid-19th Century etc...

BevfromNYC said...

rlaWTX - First we have to convince people that Biden isn't joking and really IS as stupid as he appears...no easy feat since most of the Dems have the same stupidity...Stupid is as Stupid votes.

AndrewPrice said...

Bev, We do. But here are our options:

1. The Talk Radio Option. Scream about the fiscal cliff, walk away in a huff.

The Result: We get destroyed by the media for risking the country. There is no fiscal cliff "bang" so people feel they dodged a bullet we aimed at them. The economy sinks slowly. We get blamed for not doing anything to help Obama.

2. The Smart Choice: We tell the public will give Obama everything he wants with no obstruction. We frame what he wants using his own rhetoric to (1) jack up the destructive tax hikes on his supporters, (2) shift the blame for Medicare cuts onto him, and (3) use him to do our dirty work by eliminating trillions in deductions which will allow us to move toward a flatter tax later.

The Result: Obama gets 100% of the blame because he can't argue we stood in his way. The tax hikes cause a slow erosion of the economy into 2014 and beyond. We argue for tax cuts on the basis of "Obama got what he wanted and he destroyed the recovery."

3. The Republican Plan: Stand up to Obama rhetorically in the name of protecting the rich from tax hikes. Get some minor concessions on military spending. They will then claim they worked with Obama... while getting a better deal... while saving America... while protecting the military.

The Result: Obama will talk about trying to save the country but the Republicans standing in his way to save the rich. The deal will cause the economy to tank slowly. Obama will blame the Republicans for not giving him what he wanted and the public will believe it.

Which would you choose?

T-Rav said...

Andrew, personally I call this the "movie apocalypse" fallacy. People tend to believe if a disaster unfolds, it's going to be fast, immediate, and dramatic. Like they see on the screen. But most apocalypses don't unfold that way.

It's been suggested that line of thinking is one reason people voted for Obama a second time. The recession unfolded slow enough and has now gone on long enough, they've become inured to this sort of thing, and are less willing to see Obama as captain of a disaster. That's one factor, at least.

T-Rav said...

Bev and Andrew, I know which option I would choose. But I don't know if Boehner and McConnell see it that way. Note the poll results I put in my article: 39% of Republicans say they support tax hikes on the rich. With that kind of leverage, how likely is it that GOP leaders won't fold and pursue option three? I wouldn't bet against that outcome, certainly.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, That's exactly the problem. If you tell people there will be an apocalypse and then the world doesn't end the day it happens, they decide you were wrong... even if the world ends a week later. That's why letting us go off the fiscal cliff is such a horrible idea. There will be no bang. We will look like idiots and liars to the public when it doesn't go pop the next day. And by the time it's full effects are felt, they will be looking for some new cause because they won't remember back and connect the dots. And that cause will be "the Republicans never gave me what I wanted."

That's why you rhetorically at least give him everything he wants and make it clear you aren't standing in the way. BUT you still say it won't work. And you keep saying it won't work... day after day... "Obama's policies haven't helped, they've just made it worse." "Obama's policies haven't helped, they've just made it worse." "Obama's policies haven't helped, they've just made it worse." "Obama's policies haven't helped, they've just made it worse." "Obama's policies haven't helped, they've just made it worse." "Obama's policies haven't helped, they've just made it worse." "Obama's policies haven't helped, they've just made it worse." "Obama's policies haven't helped, they've just made it worse." "Obama's policies haven't helped, they've just made it worse." "Obama's policies haven't helped, they've just made it worse." "Obama's policies haven't helped, they've just made it worse." "Obama's policies haven't helped, they've just made it worse."

Try our policies now. We can solve this CRISIS.

BevfromNYC said...

Okay, we've now entered a Stephen King novel!

Andrew - Back away from the ax!

rlaWTX said...

Andrew, what's that about Obama's policies?

BevfromNYC said...

But we ARE idiots and liars and racists and homophobes and misongynists and ignorant and so on and so on.

It was nice to see that McConnell actually laughed out loud when Geithner presented Obama's plan that includes among other things, giving sole power to the Executive branch to raise the debt ceiling.

T-Rav said...

Ummmm....Andrew? Do I need to grab a baseball bat and defend myself?

T-Rav said...

rla, either fairy dust or catch Harry Reid with a dead girl or live boy. I don't know of any other options.

T-Rav said...

P.S. I mean otherwise, impeachment will never get through the Senate. And then there's still Biden, who seems to rate his intelligence much higher than does....anyone else.

T-Rav said...

Bev, and how is that approach working out for Israel?

Never underestimate people's ability to deceive themselves in the face of overwhelming evidence. Especially when the alternative is admitting they made a huge mistake. See also, Election 2012.

Taxes said...

T-Rav

I hate those Republicans they are always wanting me to go on a diet.

I'd rather have a big fat rich Burghermeister with cheese.. mmmmm... revenue Yum Yum!

Lunch said...

Uh Uh yo voters .....

You want some of this you gonna pay for it....

I don't do freebies

Individualist said...

T-Rav

Liberalism doesn't work

it just keeps trying to cur back into the welfare line

Individualist said...

Ok

Great Line form the new Red Dawn movie...

Marines don't die, they just go to hell and regroup

AndrewPrice said...

Ok, clearly my point came across more as insanity than intended...

All I'm saying is repeat the same point day after day after day so it becomes a fact.

Also... TUNHGUOD TUNHGUOD

Koshcat said...

I still think that the republicans do not have to do anything right now. The can point to the Ryan plan that has passed the house as their means to fix the problems. That they have been ready and still are ready to negotiate this plan from the senate. They should tell the people they are willing the talk about the Simpson plan as well. Basically, flatly telling the people it is Obama and Reid who have been blocking a fix. Obama's budget was voted against by everyone and Reid has refuse to even bring up these bills in committee. They need to remind people over and over, that they have passed a budget and plan. Boehner should outright state that he is waiting for the president to stop playing golf and going on vacations and to start acting like a president.

The GOP should be saying over and over that they have saved the country even further debt since they took over the house 2 years ago. If it wasn't for them, the deficit would have been $2 trillion per year. Basically, use a page from Obama about how many "jobs he saved".

BevfromNYC said...

T-Rav - I would say that it is working out about the same as it worked for Great Britain in 1938. Netanyahu is trying what Churchill tried when Churchill warned against Hitler to no avail. I don't expect anyone will listen even now and I really don't expect Israel to last more than a few more years. But you can't say there was no warning.

BevfromNYC said...

Andrew - We're just a-funnin' ya'! Your point is well taken.

REDRUM, REDrum, redrum...

tryanmax said...

Did somebody say "rum"?

T-Rav said...

Dear Taxes, I'm sure you do. I'm sure you do. Eat up, and pay no attention to those sudden chest pains. It's nothing.

T-Rav said...

Andrew, as a completely unrelated aside, this is also what goes on with the global-warming crowd, only in reverse (actually, that's where I first noticed it). People treat it like if we pass Kyoto or whatever and all stop driving gas-guzzlers, the CO2 will magically start dissipating right away and soon we'll be living in a world with "normal temperatures" again (whatever that means). It's like they think we're in a movie where the way to avert total disaster is by pushing the big red button or something.

It's no wonder we're in this situation. What else should we expect from an electorate with such short-term thinking and the mindset of a blockbuster movie?

T-Rav said...

Koshcat, I have no problem with the Republicans getting in the Democrats' faces and hammering away at the point that we actually have a solution. But keep in mind, we're in the space just after an election cycle, not at the beginning of one, and won't be for over a year. We all know there is no way Obama and Reid will fold on this, and in that time, they can use their PR machine to put the spotlight back on Republicans and why won't they compromise just a little on their plan.

I have no doubt that's why we're having this debate now--well, it would be happening anyway due to the budget schedule, but that's why the Dems are being so standoffish. They just won the election, and they're going to use that political capital while they can.

T-Rav said...

Bev, Israel has been known to surprise people, but yes, I'm very worried about its future as well. People never learn, because it's not convenient.

BevfromNYC said...

T-Rav - And Jews have been frustratingly shortsighted since Moses thru down those tablets and they were forced to wander the desert for 40 years too.

tryanmax said...

Something was said above about using the Dems to do our dirty work on flattening the tax structure. I couldn't agree more, especially since any flattening will necessarily come with some pains here and there. Unfortunately, all of Norquist's buddies on radio would never let such a thing slide by and would use it to enrage their listeners against Republicans. I never really thought about it, but with a few exceptions the radio talkers seem to oppose a flat tax or a fair tax system. Ironic. I guess that's just a way of saying that the right has gotten just as bad as the left when it comes to wanting a pain-free solution to our current mess.

T-Rav said...

Indi, what else do you expect from an ideology that says private wealth is the state's to do with as it pleases?

T-Rav said...

Bev, some Jewish humor columnist once said something to the effect of "When the same things keep happening to you for this long, maybe it's time to re-think your decision-making process."

AndrewPrice said...

tryanmax, I agree. It's a matter of the knee-jerk overtaking the mind. They would all tell you they like a flat tax, but then they oppose any attempt to get there unless it's all done in one jump -- and even then, they will demand that certain deductions be protected (income tax, homes, charitable giving)... the ones that favor the liberal states, and which cost enough that they will prevent real rate cuts.

I said the thing about using the Democrats to do our dirty work and I mean it. Dare Obama to get rid of all those "crony deductions":

1. That puts him in the position of either defending cronies and going against what he's been pushing, or doing our dirty work.

2. He will bear the blame when people's taxes actually go up, i.e. they will blame him for the pain... not us, and they won't blame the idea of the flat tax, they will blame the idea of Obama.

3. We then come along and propose a lowering of rates to fix the disaster he caused -- and we ride a wave of anti-tax anger from the tens of millions of people whose taxes went up.

It's a smart plan, it just won't happen because the "establishment" Republicans can't think tactically and the radio Republicans are in knee-jerk mode. So yet another great opportunity to solve a huge national problem gets wasted...

T-Rav said...

tryanmax, I haven't listened to them in a while. Exactly what are they advocating? I was under the impression a flat tax or fair tax solution was pretty popular for a while.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, That's absolutely true, you see it all over the environmental world -- they want solutions that promise overnight success. But that's the human condition. People have become conditioned to expect immediate result and they don't like the idea of long term thinking. That's why so many people keep falling for the too-good-to-be-true sales pitch.

tryanmax said...

T-Rav, they still pay much lip-service to flat and fair tax ideas. But they spend far more time describing how deduction caps and eliminations are actually tax hikes a la Norquist. And as Andrew said, they want to protect the deductions that keep things the most convoluted and actually help liberals. It makes me wonder if they are stupid or cynical.

If I wanted to be generous (but I don't) I would note that they may be driven by concern that deductions won't come with offsetting rate drops. Here's the simple truth: they won't. Not at the same time anyway. That's why it makes sense to get the Dems to do the ugly parts first and then, when they get swept out of power, the Repubs can come in and do the pretty parts. But the right is just inept at long-term thinking.

tryanmax said...

Speaking of sudden apocalypse movies, wasn't The Day After Tomorrow just the worst?

T-Rav said...

tryanmax, I suspect that concern is a large part of it. And, to be fair, in politics almost nothing is certain. Look at how much has been pinned on Republicans.

But no, I agree they're thinking short-term and refusing to acknowledge one of the few things everyone can agree on: The tax code is extremely complex and confusing, and lots of people want to see it simplified. The smart thing to do would be to agree to elimination of deductions, simultaneously beat the drum of lower tax rates, and then when the inevitable happens, shout to high heaven that this was that conservatives were trying to tell people.

T-Rav said...

The Day After Tomorrow was a truly awful movie, and one which hurt my opinion of Dennis Quaid considerably. Were you really that hard up for work, dude?

Patriot said...

Commemtaramacommenters......Israel might not be long for this world.....but I seriously doubt it. Never forget these are a cultural subset that has contributed significantly to the betterment of mankind in many different countries. To name a few....Russia, England, Holland, America, France, etc. They will find ways to survive against the barbarian horde. Probably invent another weapon that just targets jihadists....who knows.

Re taxes.....the stoopid party will never win. Zero will continue his blame game. I like what Andrew I think wrote that we should say (to paraphrase) "we put forward our plan which will fix the economy. Obama's hasn't worked so far and if they continue to put forward the same job killing, middle class tax raising policies, then this is on their head. We know how to fix the economy...all the lib talking points to the contrary. But, America overwhelmingly gave Zero another chance to try more of the same. Its on him now, and we will change his disastrous policies once we get the Senate and WH back. Good luck America. This is what you voted for."

Think they'll do it? (Who am I kidding?)

Kit said...

Someone at the NRO in the comments stated this: "This is the standard Obama "negotiating" technique. Continue to repeat your demands until the other side agrees, then blow up the talks by upping your demands."

There is an addition: Then blame the Republicans for refusing to go along.

T-Rav said...

Patriot, so far as Israel is concerned, I have no doubt it has the ability to defeat its attackers, whoever they might be, or at least make a victory several orders of magnitude more costly than expected. The question is whether its leaders have the will to stand against the entire world, which I don't know about.

As far as the Republican response goes, certainly opinion-makers like Krauthammer are increasingly abandoning the idea of compromise. Among Boehner, McConnell, and other leaders in Congress, though, I worry that they're still wedded to the idea of letting the status quo stagger along as best it can, and thus doing whatever they have to do to ensure that. They clearly don't like what Obama's demanding; but whether or not they're so disgusted as to change their usual attitude is another matter.

T-Rav said...

Kit, it is a novel negotiating tactic, isn't it? Make your initial offer, then move farther away from the center with each next offer and dare the other side not to fold. Only a product of the Chicago political machine would make a play like that.

AndrewPrice said...

tryanmax, The Day After Tomorrow has actually been criticized by leftist environmentalists for giving people the idea that climate change will happen overnight. They say that's a dangerous idea to give people because it means they will ignore real danger if it doesn't happen quickly enough. Yeah, no duh.

AndrewPrice said...

Patriot, Exactly! :)

AndrewPrice said...

Kit, That is what Obama does and having negotiated with people who have done that in the past, I can tell you that it's a very hard tactic to beat. You need to be ultra aggressive in the way you deal with those people.

Sadly, the Republicans are goobers and will go in trying to be nice... and will get creamed.

rlaWTX said...

OT: Individualist - what did you think of the new "Red Dawn"? My mom and I both really enjoyed it. It was different enough to not feel blasphemous, but the story was interesting. And I liked how they pumped up the danger NorKs pose in the intro, so at least you could but the threat they would pose in the movie...

as for fairy dust and unicorn spoors, I guess we're just stuck. I vacillate between "let it burn" and "try and save it"...

T-Rav said...

rla, much as I liked Red Dawn (the original--haven't seen the remake yet), I was never able to get over the sudden Communist takeover overnight. I know it's not meant to be played that close to reality, but it was always troubling to me. If the remake does a better job of providing backstory and realism for the invasion, that would be something.

Kit said...

I suppose there is some good news:

Mitch McConnell apparently laughed at Geithner's proposals.

tryanmax said...

Kit, Andrew, I think a big mistake the Republicans are making is allowing all these negotiations to occur in private. I'm not exactly sure how to have them in public, but that is where they need to be. The way things go now, we only hear about the negotiations through the media, and it ends up sounding like Obama is offering all sorts of ideas and the Republicans are just saying no, no, no. Also, Obama's "up the ante" strategy gets spun as him backing down. It's surreal.

T-Rav said...

tryanmax, more proof of why we need to go for a media boycott. I don't think you can get these sorts of meetings in public, or at least you'll never get Obama to agree to it. He has to know he's benefitting largely from the public's ignorance.

Kit, you mean someone didn't take "Turbo Tim" Geithner seriously? The horror!

AndrewPrice said...

The best way to get this stuff in public is to just announce your position before you go in. It's simple really -- if you trust your position will play well.

Individualist said...

rlaWTX

I really liked the Red Dawn remake though it is not one that is going to gain any "critical" acclaim as a superb movie from the movie officianado's on this site (Andrew and ScottDS).

I was initially woried that the "you gotta get the secret weapon" meme in the trailers would be ridiculous and end the war but it was very grounded in what really could happen so the did not F up in that department.

They also show a lot of maion characters get killed throughout the movie just as they did in the opriginal so you get a feel for the true danger of war.

The only main difference is that unlike the original they end the movie in the middle and don't give you a true sense of who wins it .... so I guess we can expect a sequel if it does well enough.

The movie was very respectful of the military.

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