So I am back "on the grid" again. I just spent the week communing with nature (trees, deer, bugs, spiders etc.) and, well, I learned that I am not really a nature girl and that the world of politics turns without my imput. How rude! But, with all my communing with nature and stuff, an interesting question was raised and I thought it might make for a good and, hopefully, thought-provoking discussion.
I was with a random (or not so random) group of people from around the world from varying backgrounds who very obviously had major "issues" with organized religion. Well, they had real problems with Christianity and specifically Catholicism. [As an aside, they had no problem making the leap that aliens control us from a space ship hovering over Earth, but that's a whole other story] So it got me contemplating the cosmos (real and/or imagined), and my question is really pretty simple:
Just so you understand, I am not asking about your religious beliefs or whether God exists. The question really is about the institution of "religion". I know what I think, but since we at CommentaramaPolitics are all thoughtful and intelligent people, let's discuss...
By the way, if you have never really looked at a spider web upclose and personal (and sans the big, giant, hairy spider), they really are amazing works of art...spider webs, not spiders. Spiders are scary.
I was with a random (or not so random) group of people from around the world from varying backgrounds who very obviously had major "issues" with organized religion. Well, they had real problems with Christianity and specifically Catholicism. [As an aside, they had no problem making the leap that aliens control us from a space ship hovering over Earth, but that's a whole other story] So it got me contemplating the cosmos (real and/or imagined), and my question is really pretty simple:
Has religion had a net positive effect or net negative effect on human history?
Just so you understand, I am not asking about your religious beliefs or whether God exists. The question really is about the institution of "religion". I know what I think, but since we at CommentaramaPolitics are all thoughtful and intelligent people, let's discuss...
By the way, if you have never really looked at a spider web upclose and personal (and sans the big, giant, hairy spider), they really are amazing works of art...spider webs, not spiders. Spiders are scary.
22 comments:
Bev, I would break religion's influence into the following...
1. Organized religion has been a disaster. It has promoted violence and intolerance... look at Islam and how easily so many Christians have been taught to believe the exact opposite of Christ's very words. It also neuters the meaning of religion by telling people there are shortcuts that don't require personal growth and by feeding them meaningless bumperstick thoughts without demanding any understanding.
2. On the other hand, religion itself is a beautiful thing. It lies at the foundation of our consciences. The belief in something greater than what we can see also provides meaning and hope to almost everyone at some level.
3. For Christianity, if you follow the words and teachings of Christ, then you are a pretty special person and you are helping to build a special world. Unfortunately, such people are truly rare.
I cannot say anything even close to similar about Islam, which is hateful and stupid.
4. Cults are a disaster, but at least they help us identify the "true retards" among us and they keep those people away from the rest of us.
5. Ultimately, however, I would say that religion has had limited impact on the human condition. Historically, society is driven by a very small group of people and they don't tend to take religious teachings to heart. To the contrary, they see religion primarily as a means for manipulating the masses to accept decisions that have already been made.
Most people are very good at taking the 'useful' bits from religious texts and ignoring the inconvenient bits so they wind up doing exactly what they want to do.
Fasten your seat belts…
When it comes to religion, I’m rather indifferent. It’s never played any kind of significant role in my life, even when I was attending Hebrew school. “But Scott, how do you know the difference between right and wrong?” I just do. It’s hard-wired.
Like Andrew, I despise organized religion. As far as this country goes, I have no faith in and no respect for any organization with words like “Faith” or “Family” in the name. And they wonder why Jews are skeptical of evangelicals (the professional ones, that is).
But there are great Christians out there who walk the walk. I went to film school with a few of them and I have the utmost respect for them. There was also one hardcore Christian student I didn’t respect. (His Facebook feed littered with James Dobson’s “wisdom.”)
Allow me to explain:
We made a WW2-themed short film about “ghost soldiers.” This student saw the film as a metaphor for Christ’s death and resurrection. So on the weekend, he and a few classmates remade the movie as a much more literal interpretation. Okay, fine. More power to him, right?
Wrong. He added a title card at the beginning that specifically stated: “THIS MOVIE IS ABOUT JESUS!” In doing so, he made sure that other people wouldn’t have the same reaction he did. He saw the original and it meant something to him. His own version took all the ambiguity and wonder out of it.
That’s the religious right in a nutshell, at least for me.
As for Islam, f— ‘em!!
Y 2¢ is that there ought to be quite reckoning on the term "religion." I don't need to describe to anyone here the ways in which the outer ends of the political spectrum have become dogmatic.
Interesting...no one sees the great contributions that the institution of religion has contributed - art, architecture, music, education, literature, social services, hospitals, commerce and general organization/civilizing influences etc.? Am I the only one who sees religion as a net positive?
Wow ... one even might say ... cynical.
I think the question is a bit overbroad. Whether religion is a good thing depends on what religion we’re discussing. As a Christian, I can speak to my religion. Christian religion is great positive for supporting a faith through which I have seen some very powerful things happen. Yep, I totally buy it when Christ says the path to salvation is through Him. Big problem people have with that: Christ doesn’t offer any other path. So, Islam is not salvation and Allah is not God – just to offer one example.
I think the major problem is that, because religion is used as a way to address and organize faith, it provides opportunity for considerable mischief. In some egregious cases, human opinion masquerades as divine knowledge. This leads to schisms in churches, exploitative cults, false gods, manipulative “ministers,” and at its worse, “religious” war, rapine and rampage.
In fact, my family left a church because the minister said that we didn’t have to believe everything in the Bible – just use the parts that make sense to us as individuals. Now, I’ll admit there are elements in the Bible that are hard to digest, but to act like the verses are just “Legos of Spirituality” that I can pick at will to build my own little God tower was a bit too much.
Religion can be used for manipulative purposes, just as patriotism may give rise to nationalism and even racism, or compassion can breed statism (I really do expect that a lot of libs and progs genuinely believe they’re working for the greater good). Misuse of a noble idea does not damn it.
As to the benefits of religion, I’ll leave you with this little gem, derived directly from Judeo-Christian tradition:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”
I am a Christian (or at least I try to be one). I think organized religion, in the west at least, has been a net good. I think most of its problems stem from human nature. Every church (small-c) is a human institution and therefore is fallible.
I'm reminded of one of Larry Niven's laws: "No cause is so noble that it won't attract fuggheads."
Kit - Stop scaring us with "TEST"...I am starting to have those "Oh, NO!, I forgot to go to this class all semester and the final exam is today" nightmares! LOL!
KRS - Wow! My head just exploded. That was exactly what I was going for and so beautifully stated too! Bravo!
And yes, it is a very broad question, but it has to be for me. I think that all religions are manifestations of their individual culture, but they are strikingly similar. The dogma, rituals, and practices may be different, but the purpose is the same. All have a higher power that guides our lives. Even my "Aliens-In-The-Hovering-Spacecraft" believers accept a "higher power" that guides (or controls) them.
This is a question I've struggled with a lot the past several years. I'm a Christian, but hardly consider myself a good example of one. I try to live by its principles as well as I can, but it's always felt like I'm missing something no matter what I do. I guess a lot of it comes from growing up in the heavily evangelical south and having geeky interests, which has caused some friction with churches and people around here. More of it, I think, comes from these past several years where very, very few things have gone right and the proportion of actual help and advice compared to platitudes and outlandish suggestions leans far more towards the latter. A lot of times I wonder if I'm just not too rational-minded to be a good Christian, for whatever this minor bit of venting may have contributed.
- Daniel
Bev,
While I agree that you are right in that most religious believers, regardless of their religion, accept a "'higher power' that guides (or controls) them" I will say that, as far as I can see, most disagree on the nature of the higher power that guides them and the way it guides them.
The Pagan Greco-Romans, like many pagans of the ancient world, had a very fatalist view of life. The gods cared largely for their own interests. Once in a while they go outside of that sphere but largely its self-interest that guides them, much like humans. The Trojan War in myth is really a civil war between the gods with each picking a side and backing it. Aphrodite backing the Trojans because Paris of Troy picked her for the Golden Apple and Hera and Athena, who Paris did not pick, supporting the Greeks largely out of spite.
Judaism and Christianity changed that. Judaism created the idea of an all-powerful God who was good and who cared so deeply for the humans he created that he wanted them to be good. So he chose a group of people, the Hebrews, to be a light to the world and sent prophets to his chosen people strayed (and they often did).
Christianity added an addendum: No human could ever be good enough. We are too flawed. This meant a sacrifice was required so God sent his own Son to die for humanity's sins. Even though humanity often turns its back on this all-powerful God, the all-powerful God never turns his back on humanity.
Despite, the overt attacks against even the very term "humanism" by many Christians, Christianity and Judaism are probably the most humanist religions in history. Humanity is wicked at worst and flawed at best but still has a basic value.
Ok, I went on a bit longer than I wanted and may have gone deeply into sermon territory but there you have it.
Christianity and Art, here is music.
"Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" from Bach's Cantata Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben: Can you find more peaceful music?
LINK
"Hallelujah Chorus" from Handel's Messiah (4min 22sec): A joyous celebration of the victory of Good over Evil.
LINK
You could probably also add the last 15 minutes of Fantasia, "Night on Bald Mountain" & "Ave Maria".
Bev,
I see the massive positive contributions religion has made, but there is the other side of it...
To focus on one area, religion has inspired a lot of wonderful art (I'm no art scholar, so I'll just vaguely wave in Michelangelo's direction), but it has also destroyed a lot of wonderful art (lots of pagan art including beautiful works from Greece were destroyed or defaced by Christians).
So I stand by my contention that it all kind of balances out.
Daniel - I didn't mean to test your belief or faith. We are all human and make mistakes. All I am asking is "has religion enhanced or detracted from human existence"? Yeah, okay that "All I am asking" is pretty hysterical considering the vastness of human history. I get that. And maybe you aren't a good "Christian", maybe you're a good human or Buddhist or Secular Humanist or as I always call myself a "Southern Neo-Pagan Hedonist"!
"Whenever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps, and whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues." - Bhagavad Gita
A bit of Breaking News: Texas man has come down w/ Ebola. He had recently visited West Africa. Also, he spent about four days with symptoms before he was put in isolation.
LINK
sorry to be late. I think the net impact of religion has been positive. The values set forth by the religions are extremely worthy, but very hard to live up to. Major wars in the name of religion seems to me to be more the attempts of fallible humans to justify their wars. That said, the phrase "God is on Our Side" is pretty silly to me. Since I didn't get a chance to read the other comments yet, my apolgies if I have duplicated.
Yeah, Kit. I was just in Dallas. But I think I'm safe...cough, cough...
Bev, Glad you're ebola free. ;-)
I agree that there have been a great many positives by religion. Christianity is largely the foundation for Western Civilization and that means a lot. But at the same time, religions also produce a lot of bad things. I see its legacy as largely a wash... a lot of good, a lot of bad.
That said, would the world be better off without it? No. In fact, the few times atheists or anti-religious powers have been given a chance (Nazis, Commies), they've killed tens of millions. But the world would be better off if religion focused more on man's relationship with God and offered fewer avenues for people to think religion means controlling other men in the name of God.
P.S. Sorry for not participating more yesterday, it's been a tough week.
I probably agree most with Kit's position especially regarding Judao-Christian religions with occasions of abuse.
A similar question would be has organized government been a force of good or evil. Generally good but has often been abused.
I didn't take it as such, Bev. I guess at the end of the day I'm just more annoyed by the control freak aspects of churches and such than I am with the idea of Christianity in general. As for its impact on the whole I'd give a slight edge to it being good overall, but it's hard to ignore both the big problems like wars and the smaller ones. Not much or original, I know, but there you have it.
- Daniel
A late-post but a quote from G.K. Chesterton: "When people impute special vices to the Christian Church, they seem entirely to forget that the world (which is the only other thing there is) has these vices much more. The Church has been cruel; but the world has been much more cruel. The Church has plotted; but the world has plotted much more. The Church has been superstitious; but it has never been so superstitious as the world is when left to itself."
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