Friday, June 14, 2013

Hero, Traitor, or Blah?

So there was a pretty big story in the news this week. It involved government surveillance, questions about civil liberties, and cloak-and-dagger work. And unfortunately, there was a hipster at the center of it.

Last week, word came of a massive information leak from the NSA, thanks to one of its employees, Mr. Edward Snowden, who had accumulated a bunch of data, sent it all to a reporter, and then made his escape to Hong Kong. The information has to do with the NSA's means of gathering data, which include the collection of personal emails, phone records, etc., all with the click of a mouse by government employees. So, naturally, this was going to get tied into the broader "Scandal-gate" (tm) and become controversial, which Snowden helped along by saying in interviews from his new port of call that he could have downloaded the data and personal correspondence of literally anyone who was a U.S. citizen (and probably lots of people who weren't).

As inevitably happens, there's been a lot of back-and-forth about how damaging to national security the intel leak is, whether Snowden did the right thing, what his motives are, etc. Lots of people think he's a hero (so much so that he's beginning to have a weird cult following), others that he's betrayed America or at best is just an opportunist and media whore. So it's worth diving into to sort out what's going on.

Specifically, what Snowden leaked was the details of a surveillance program known as PRISM, which to my profound disappointment doesn't actually stand for anything. Simply a codename for a vast operation involving spying on both foreign and domestic individuals and corporations, not to mention other governments and military forces. Partly, the operation accomplished this by mining tons of personal data from such sites as Facebook, Yahoo, Google, etc., raising fears that the heads of these companies were deliberately colluding with the government in eavesdropping on their users. (The CEOs dispelled these fears right away by issuing denials unusually similar to each other.) Anyway, Snowden, who had been working for one of the firms handling all this data collection, gathered a bunch of documents related to it, then sent them off to a reporter before high-tailing it out of here.

The reaction of the politically powerful, in both parties, has been rather predictable. Given that the damage is occurring to a Democratic administration, it's no surprise to see people like Dianne Feinstein accusing Snowden of treason. Among Republicans, too, leaders from Boehner on down have denounced the leaker as a traitor, with even Ron Paul fighting shy of calling the man an American hero (although I bet he really wanted to).

The guy's claim, all along, has been that he was morally repulsed by the extent of NSA spying activity and felt it was his duty to let the American people know about it. In his own words, he's neither a hero nor a criminal, just a guy who saw something that needed to be done. Well, that's noble (in an annoying do-gooder sort of way). And Snowden's online history shows a long record of hostility to Big Brother, so it's certainly plausible. Do note, however, that he was only working for the NSA for a few months, which for many people has raised the question of whether this was a huge play from the beginning. Either way, for him to sit down with the Chinese press and talk about the NSA's surveillance of leading members of the People's Republic doesn't suggest a natural-born patriot. As one blogger put it (I paraphrase), "It's one thing to talk to the American people about the American government's snooping. It's another thing entirely to talk to the Chinese people about the American government's snooping." And the fact that Snowden's openly discussed fleeing to Russia and putting himself under Vladimir Putin's protection suggests that he may be, at best, a monumentally stupid man.

Snowden seems like a rather unsavory character the more we learn about him (I'm assuming bragging about having sex in a playground can still qualify one for the definition of "unsavory character"). But does it matter? Even talking to China about the NSA's snooping on them, something the Chinese undoubtedly knew about already (although maybe not in all its details), probably isn't specific enough to qualify for a charge of "treason."

Plus, there doesn't seem to be any mass reaction to the leak one way or the other. A recent poll showed 56% of Americans saying they had no issue in principle with extensive government surveillance; another survey had it at 49% of people being mostly okay with it. So it's a split decision, which may or may not be encouraging to the DC pols. Certainly it won't provide mass support for a witch-hunt, if that's what they're after. Probably, there will be a lot of harrumphing about the guy and then he'll be forgotten, especially if his image becomes more and more tarnished and he winds up as Putin's puppet (like everyone else in the Kremlin).

Frankly, I think the big take-away here, once more, is the extent to which the Obama White House closely resembles its predecessor. After coming into office four years ago with promises of respecting "the rule of law" and ending abuses of power a la Patriot Act, The One is trying to plug leaks and clamp down on his underlings' lips just like any other executive. So much for being transformative.

As for Snowden....meh. Like I said, he's a hipster, and kind of a weirdo. I say we waterboard him if we get him back, just because.

54 comments:

Tennessee Jed said...

this is really tough one for me to get my arms around. Let's start with Snowdon. He can't be a "hero" because he ran away, unwilling to stand on principle. How much he has really damaged us is open to debate, of course. The amount of data being collected is extremely scary since our trust in government "only" in a way that will thwart terrorist attacks is clearly suspect. Some of those issues were touched on Sunday in Andrew's article on "why privacy matters." How much he actually knows and the extent to which it harms national security is an open question. It appears like tremendous overkill, and definitely extremely vulnerable to government abuse of power. So, I don't have very good feelings bout what the government is doing or Snowdon either.

AndrewPrice said...

I think the big take-away here, once more, is the extent to which the Obama White House closely resembles its predecessor.

True. Even more to the point, he's been worse:

1. Bush started closing Gitmo and granting them legal rights, Obama tried to make them non-persons.

2. Bush had limits on drones, Obama's only limit is how often they can fly.

3. Bush and the Patriot Act never did what Obama has done.

And Obama ran against each of these things in 2008. He's not only rotten, he's a rotten hypocrite to boot.

T-Rav said...

Incidentally, I neglected to mention that in his rush to escape the U.S., Snowden cut off contact with everyone in his life, including his stripper/ballerina/pole-dancer girlfriend. You can probably find some pictures of her, as I (unintentionally) did. In light of those pictures, I must say to Snowden:

YOU IDIOT!!!

That is all.

T-Rav said...

Jed, it's hard to say, indeed. At first, it appeared he wasn't really telling the Chinese (or anyone else) anything they didn't already know--of course the U.S. is involved in espionage--but now it seems he did spill the details of certain narrowly-focused operations. And in any case, it's one thing to know this is going on and another to have the evidence put out in the open for all to see. It's like "knowing" Daddy had a secret love child, versus said love child suddenly showing up for Thanksgiving. Just really embarrassing for us on the diplomatic front.

That said, this does give a lot of plausibility to all the old fears of a "military-industrial complex." It's really a situation in which there are no good guys.

T-Rav said...

Andrew, but you must admit, he's got dozens of other rotten hypocrites going to bat for him, from Reid on down. It's an ensemble effort in shamelessness, if you will.

AndrewPrice said...

Jed, I'm in the same boat. I've seen nothing to really discredit Snowden except that he was new on the job and he ran. BUT, (1) you run when you think you're going to be made to disappear if you don't and you tell the world to prevent that, and (2) being new on the job means nothing. Frankly, it would be worse if he worked on it for years and suddenly changed his mind -- that speaks to opportunism.

As for motive, I think we just don't know yet, so I have no thoughts on him really. In other words, the jury is still out on him in my book.

As for what the government has done, I think it's both a really bad thing to allow and it's pointless at the same time. I can't see this helping them fight terrorists and the potential for abuse it too high.

For me, the biggest issue right now is what T-Rav concludes with, that this is really a reflection on Obama's hypocrisy.

Also, let me say that if this happened under Bush, Feinstein and the rest would not be calling him a traitor.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, Obama or Snowden? :P

In truth, I don't count who is going to bat for him as a reflection on him because they are just using him to make whatever point they are making. And even groups like the ACLU are right sometimes.

K said...

One element that bears on le affaire Snowden is the question just how secure this intrusive government surveillance is making us? See liberty vs security Franklin quote.

If giving the government total information control has prevented a 9-11 every week then obviously it was worth it and Snowden is a dirty rotten scoundrel.

Frankly, though, I don't think it's anywhere near that valuable. We don't fear major terrorist attacks enough to give up politically correct searches. 90 year old midwest granmas get their bums fondled instead of running the far less instrusive Israeli system of profiling. We still allow immigration and refuges from countries that are terrorist hotbeds.

In addition, there's another factor in judging the value of total information access - if the IRA can act as a political weapon, why not the NSA? Remember Hillary "accidently" aquiring the FBI files on Republicans? Scanning the phone records of key Republicans would be the ultimate
blackmail machine. The fact that such a thing exists is a huge moral hazzard.

Subsequently, my judgement of Snowden (I keep thinking of Catch 22 when I type his name) is tempered by the likelyhood that 12 years after 9-11 we should be getting back to freedom and soon, before such a machine becomes too tempting. Otherwise, the terrorists win.

Patriot said...

T-Rav.......Here's my concerns, similar to what's been stated above.

1) The gov't is using this to "improve security and prevent terrorists attacks." By that standard it's failed (Boston Marathon attack). It neither provides security nor safety for Americans if ANY attack gets through. Do we trust the gov't when they say they've prevented numerous terrorists attacks due to this program? I don't. Similar to "I've prevented numerous bank robberies when I was using the ATM. No way to prove.

2) We must trust the gov't to not abuse this extraordinary power to snoop into our very personal communications. IRS, EPA, DOJ, etc. Enough said. They WILL abuse it for both political and personal reasons. They are human.

3) I heard that they cannot probe into mosque activities and such. If so, we're f@!*ed. No wonder they didn't catch and stop the Tamerlin bro's.

4) I though gov't whistleblowers were the new media darlings....Pentagon Papers, Iran Contra, Bush II everything? We all know that when a Dem is in power the shoe is........ I believe I even heard one of the colossal fools in Congress state that they're okay with this as long as Obama is President but if a Repub gets in power than they would fight it as it would be abused. Shows you how deeply psychotic liberalism and party loyalty is.

As far as Snowden? Extreme naiveté masked as heroism. Plus a piss poor job by BAH in vetting him. But a traitor? Meh. Who's a traitor anymore for exposing what goes on behind the curtain? Actually, I'd probably put Bradley Manning in that category, just because of his motivations for doing what he did. Snowden? Wannabe....actual fool, wannabe hero.

Patriot said...

Oh.....BTW.....We willingly give our permission to have all our communications collected and analyzed.....ever read some EULA's for the big firms involved in this NSA b.s.?

T-Rav said...

Andrew, in that respect, I guess you have to give the GOP brownie points for consistency. Boehner et al. would have called him a traitor under Bush, so at least they're doing so regardless of the administration.

I'm generally distrustful of people like Snowden, just because. And the timing is odd. If he was only working for them for a few months, how did he get the clearance to collect all these documents in the first place? Maybe he had a collaborator higher up in the program, or maybe it's so haphazard he just hacked his way through the security and swiped it all. Either scenario isn't very reassuring.

T-Rav said...

Andrew, good point. But in this case, I was actually talking about Obama as the rotten hypocrite. It's an easy mistake to make. ;-)

tryanmax said...

As for what the government has done, I think it's both a really bad thing to allow and it's pointless at the same time.

I heard one pol describe it as searching for a needle in a haystack by adding more hay. Clever.

-------------------------

I won't comment on heroics, but I want to address the subject of cowardice. Of course, it's an ad hominem attack to dismiss Snowden as a coward, as if that is the beginning and end of it.

But more than that, it abuses the term "coward." Most definitions of the term describe an easily intimidated person, one who flees at the first and slightest signs of danger or even unpleasantness.

As I rack my brain, I can't think of a term that describes one who avoids certain or near-certain peril. (i.e. ...you run when you think you're going to be made to disappear...) Probably because "smart" pretty much covers it.

-------------------------

Regarding that Snowden was "new" on the job: I know this audience is smarter, but on conspiracy radio and the drive-by news they use that characterization to make it seem like this guy got picked up in a Home Depot parking lot. They keep asking questions like, "Is it too easy to get a security clearance?"

He was new at Booz Allen, he was not new to the security industry. He has prior NSA and CIA credentials and probably couldn't have gotten the job at Booz Allen without them.

tryanmax said...

FYI, maybe most folks don't know, but once you have security clearances, they follow you. You don't leave them with your former employer. That is why private security firms recruit from government security agencies. Saves them the costs of getting said clearances on their own.

Patriot said...

It costs close to $40,000 to get a Top Secret TS/SCI clearance these days. Of course most gov't contractors will hire someone who already has the clearance level the position is looking for. It is rare, but not unusual, for a big firm like BAH to pay for a TS clearance if the individual has the necessary CV and skills for the named position. These are some of the most coveted positions contractors try and get for their gov't contracts. Big dollars and less competition. This is why many US military professionals go to work for gov't contractors at a nice salary when they leave active duty. They have all the quals needed and the contractor can make good dollars by placing them in a like position ... sometimes doing the same job they just left while on active duty!

This is one of the reasons why the DC area is one of the, if not the highest, per capita income and education areas in the country.

Bottom line, Snowden's career trajectory is not that unusual if he had the skill and clearance level for the job.

Individualist said...

I think this is a huge scasndal but it has nothing to do with Snowden but rather the hiring controls or lack thereof of the NSA. As I understand it Snowden made 200K a year and he only had a GED. There was an artical on BH about this guy padding his resume to the press stating he could not complete Special Forces training because he broke his legs and the military responded that he was never in Special Forces school and could not get in because he only had a GED.
:
So scandal #1... how do high school drop outs get a position as an IT specialist in the NSA. To my mind if we want to ensure that our NSA workers become chinese spies then we should start hiring high school drop outs and we will have lots of them.
:
Scandal #2: This guy downloaded all of these files onto a USB thumb drive. Starting with windows Vista and moving on to 7 and 8 the Group Policy Objects (the sytem settings for the Microsoft windows operating system) has had a GPO that can be added to the servers that shut off the capability to write or or read fiels from a thumb drive. Most companies don't enable this but all of them can enable it fairly easily.
:
Why in Sam Hades has the NSA super secret decoder spy ring assinged to moniter the world not done so?
:
As to a program than can mine public sites like twitter and facebook we need to get clarification because the Google and Ask.com and Bing allow us to "mine" such sites. So why is PRISM something more nefarious than a search engine.
:
The scandal is not snowden who sorry t-rav looks more technonerd than hipster to me. the scandal is that our spy agencies is such a joke that they would actually hire this guy.

T-Rav said...

K, not to split hairs, but I've never been a huge fan of that "Otherwise, the terrorists win" line. It's always seemed pretty clear to me that their goal wasn't so much to make us live in fear but rather kill as many of us as possible.

That being said, there remains the question of whether all these surveillance measures are effective (since, of course, they're not being carried out against terrorists alone). It's a question we're probably unable to answer; in all likelihood, surveillance and extensive searches have stopped at least a few attacks, but surely no one believes that they can make us 100% secure, which in turn renders the whole "liberty vs. security" issue kind of inadequate, or at least incomplete.

tryanmax said...

Indie, to (gently) paraphrase Buckley, I won't suggest that you really believe what you just said, which is suggestive that somehow a high school diploma ensures fealty to the United States.

T-Rav said...

tryanmax, good point about the security clearances, although it's still not clear to me whether those clearances were high enough for him to get all this info on his own (through regular channels, at least).

I don't really know why people would call Snowden a coward. I understand the connotation, at least--they're insinuating he did something bad, which perhaps in the long run he did. But the specific term doesn't apply here. I wouldn't call him brave, either, necessarily. It's kind of hard to say what fits.

T-Rav said...

Folks, I have to step out for a few hours, so talk amongst yourselves. I'll leave you with this: Like I said, the extent to which Obama mirrors or even exceeds Dubya just boggles the mind sometimes. LINK

tryanmax said...

T-Rav, I doubt much clarity will ever be provided, given the nature of such things. It's the nature of such firms and agencies to deny everything. Until something surfaces to contradict it, I'm satisfied to think there was no breakdown in security and that this is a true whistleblower moment.

For my part, it feels disingenuous to be critical of the NSA's activities and yet say they should have kept them under better wraps. That's how liberals sleep at night: under a blanket of willful ignorance.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav and tryanmax, I think they're calling him a coward because it's an emotional response -- it's a knee-jerk reaction to smear someone you believe has been disloyal.

What I find ironic is that many of the same people who are smearing him and trying to make him into a non-person are the same people who are outraged that the government is doing this. That's a bizarre contradiction to me -- we want this evil disclosed, but apparently the only people allowed to disclose it are the people running the program at the top. Makes no sense to me.

tryanmax said...

Andrew, pulling those two thoughts together, I think the real cowards are the ones who are doing just that, playing both sides until they see which way the wind is blowing. Very few people with access to a microphone seem to be reserving judgement.

And I think you're spot on. Normally, you might hear different people from the same side of the political spectrum espousing different views, and that gets construed as "the same people" contradicting themselves. But in this case, I'm hearing individuals taking both sides, often within the same breath.

AndrewPrice said...

BTW, As for how he got this stuff and why he could access the computers. I think people misunderstand both how these things work and the nature of the information.

From what I've seen, he hasn't turned over anything "serious" in the sense of being technical schematics or evidence of what is actually monitored. What he's turned over has been a power point presentation which looks a lot like the kind of thing they would use to brief people into the program or to provide at government briefings.... a "deliverable" under the contract. And while that may be classified, that's not the type of document anyone keeps in a vault.

In fact, having handled many documents like this and more, I can tell you that before people start using vaults and secure servers, you need to get way down into truly secret information. To give you an example, I once had the schematics for an M1-Abrams sitting on my desk in a 6 CD set. That was the whole tank. You could have gone down to Western Auto and picked up the parts and built your own from those schematics. When I asked if this shouldn't be in a vault or something, the Army guys and the contractor guys looked at me like I was crazy. Some of the computer code in the chips they used was secret, but 99.9% of the tank was not.

In terms of their IT system, again, the contracting world is nothing like the locked-down CIA you see on films. Most contractors have offices in commercial buildings and their "security" is a receptionist. They have computers that access the internet and allow the use of peripherals. They have unlocked file cabinets. And the reason is that while most of what they deal with is secret on some level, none of it is secret the way the public thinks.

If this guy has walked away with computer code, that would have been something different, but it doesn't sound like he did.

AndrewPrice said...

tryanmax, I don't think it's cowardice, so much as emotional "thinking." It's people who don't realize that they aren't using their brains to think and that they are simply emoting their way through issues in a vacuum with no consistency.

AndrewPrice said...

Indi, NEVER believe what you read at Breitbart.

According to the Guardian, the Army has confirmed that he did join Special Forces and he lasted four months. They have not said why he didn't complete the course: LINK.

K said...

T-Rav: I'm pretty sure the terrorists are more interested in the conversion of the West to their flavor of Islam than exterminating as many people as possible. The strategy of terrorism is first to get their message out and second to overbalance the system into a less stable configuration. A paranoid fearful society is a hell of a lot less stable than an open, brave and free one.

Koshcat said...

I'm going to say it: Snowden is a coward.

If he truly loved this country and was trying to protect us, he didn't need to flee to China. He could have easily gone to Canada if he was worried. Even France would have been safe. Heck, he could have stayed in the US and been a "deep throat".

I don't think he is a traitor in the formal sense of the word but there is something loopy about him. It wouldn't surprise me if the Chinese sent him back because he's schizophrenic. I think he should be water boarded as well. He could then be like Han Solo, "they didn't even ask any questions."

AndrewPrice said...

Koshcat, Fleeing to Canada would be like fleeing to Wyoming. He'd be back in a week. This isn't like draft dodging -- they wouldn't protect him. France won't protect him unless he's facing the death penalty, which he won't be unless they call this treason and it's probably not that.

I understand he's trying to get to Iceland, but can't apply because he needs to be in Iceland first. My guess is that he got bad advice before he did anything... or he doesn't like ice volcanoes.

Personally, if I was going to pick a city to be stuck in, Hong Kong sounds pretty good to me.

Koshcat said...

Protect him from what? He hasn't even been charged. If child rapist can live in peace in France I think a goofy computer programer can. More importantly, he doesn't have to say where he is. If he was worth his salt he could communicate via the web (or better yet The Deep Web) to his reporter friend and they wouldn't know where he would be. It took the FBI years to find the Unabomber and it wasn't until his brother recognized the ranting that he was found.

I hope he ends up in Russia eating old potatoes and vodka with bad internet access...dial up even!

Let me make something clear. I don't like what the government was doing but I don't like making this guy a hero either. I believe he is an attention whore who has watched "Sneakers" to many times.

tryanmax said...

My understanding is that Snowden picked Hong Kong because of a snafu in their extradition law. Going there is also not a bad way to make sure someone pays attention to you. And if he had gone "deep throat" people would just call him a coward anyway. It's just armchair quarterbacking, anyway. "If it were me...!"

Personally, if it were me, I probably wouldn't say a damn thing. My (new) motto is, "Don't F*** with the people flying the drones." How's that for cowardly?

tryanmax said...

Koshcat, you're playing it both ways: "If he weren't a coward, he'd conceal his identity."

And for some stupid reason, the French think Polanski is a national treasure of theirs, so it's not really comparable to anything.

Koshcat said...

You're probably right about playing both ways. I guess I see him more as an attention whore than a coward. I think you also pointed out that it isn't cowardly to protect yourself from disappearing.

What bugs me is here is somebody who is whining that our government has too much power and is getting into too much of our private affairs, so he leaves and goes to China? He is either extremely stupid, ignorant, or a closet communist.

Besides too many people in Hong Kong and talk about standing out in a crowd.

Koshcat said...

BTW, I love the statement "don't f@#$ with the guys who control the drones."

AndrewPrice said...

Koshcat, Now you've gone too far, Sir! Dial up??! How inhuman! LOL!

I don't think the guy is a hero either, but I don't see him as a villain either. What he exposed is something the public did not know about and clearly doesn't like. I see him as the same as any other whistleblower. And frankly, I'd rather that we had more whistleblowers to keep the government from being so secretive.

In terms of what he's charged with, you don't stick around until they charge you because by that point you're in jail already and, at that point, you will be made an example of. What they will charge him with will be violation of various secrecy acts and false statements and he's probably looking at 25 years without parole... 50 if they get creative.

AndrewPrice said...

tryanmax, I think that's the problem here is that it's too easy to frame whatever it is in a negative light. If he worked too long, then why did he wait? If he just started, then he planned it. If he hides his identity, then he's a coward. If he runs he's a coward. If he doesn't run then he's a nut. You can spin either side of everything when you want to. Lawyers do it all the time.

On drones... I've come to believe that drones aren't all that. I've run across a lot of information about how al Qaeda evades drones and it's stunningly simple actually. I get the sense that the drones really only get people who don't know they are being targeted. I've also seen that they've managed to hack the drones several times. That's an unhappy thought.

I guess the motto is keep watching the skies and always keep a 10 year old computer genius with you.

tryanmax said...

Not quite as pithy, though, is it, Andrew?

Truth be told, it's not the drones I'm worried about. It's the resources behind the drones. And if al Qaeda is hacking them, then they're just one more somebody to not F*** with.

AndrewPrice said...

True, I haven't had the chance to think of a pithy way to say it. LOL!

On al Qaeda, I have to say that they don't worry me. They don't strike me as particularly competent. I personally think that if I were running a terrorist org, I would be much more capable than those fools.

It's a good thing I'm not a terrorist.

Individualist said...

Andrew

The point is not what data he downloaded. It is that at a location like that the GPO should be set to turn off the USB thumb keys at all computers. By the By this is standard practice at companies like Northrup Grumman where tanks, among other things are built. When I was at Northrup Grumman a s a contractor we had to turn over cell phones with cameras and could get in trouble if we piggy backed through a revolving door on someone eles's swipe and did not swipe the key fob ourselves.
:
Tyranmax, being a high school drop out does not make anyone more inclined to treason that anyone else. However, if you are going to hire people without checking qualififications to do a job, you probably did not bother with with a backround check either. This guy appears to me to be a product of that type of institutional incompetence. Unless he somehow had all the computer certifications there were which I doubt I don't think he should have ever been given the job in the first place.
:
Andrew as I understand it from the article Snowden claimed he was in SFSW and was unable to continue because he broke his legs. The military liason confirmed that he was not in SFSW and could not qualify for SFSW even if he did not break his legs because he only had a GED. They did confirm he was in the military and broke his legs. The article was not editorializing for or against the guy that I could tell. Either way there does not seem to any dispute that I saw that the guy had only a GED. But who knows.

Koshcat said...

He is in a no win situation. Still if I was truly worried about too much government involvement in my life the LAST place I would go is China. I'm thinking more Costa Rica, maybe Argentina would leave him alone. Heck, even Cuba has nice weather. It would probably take the Greeks 20 years to figure out he was in their country.

I wonder if the reason the public isn't too upset one way or the other is that most are not surprised. He whistled on something I think many suspected the NSA was already doing. It's not like people haven't been talking about it for years. To believe otherwise is just naive.

AndrewPrice said...

Indi, The article at the link (which has been cited to now by others like the Washington Times) says that the Army has confirmed that he was in the program:

"His records indicate he enlisted in the army reserve as a special forces recruit (18X) on 7 May 2004 but was discharged 28 September 2004," the US army's chief civilian spokesman, George Wright, said by email on Monday. (In his Guardian interview, Snowden gave the year as 2003.)

It goes on to explain what the 18X program is.

In terms of the security, there definitely are secure facilities, but the vast majority of workers work in places where a key card can get you in. And I've never had to turn over cell phones or cameras at places like Northrup Grumman (or others), and I've had lots of thing I thought should be secret handed to me to take with me without any controls at all.

tryanmax said...

Indy, it sounds like this guy was highly qualified to the job despite his GED. It's not surprising, really. Absent any other info like GPA, a GED is a more reliable indicator of basic aptitude than a diploma. As far as the Army is concerned, GPA + 15 college credits = HS diploma. I just found that on the Army's website. ABC reports Snowden did do some work towards a Master's degree, which means he must have a Bachelor's. So the military liaison is incorrect.

AndrewPrice said...

Koshcat, I think the reason this won't turn out to be a big scandal in the US are threefold:

1. We all kind of knew they did this already.

2. They were only spying on foreigners. (The Euros are apparently rather furious... ha ha.)

3. It's hard to generate a scandal when liberals won't blame Obama and when conservatives are claiming that this is hunky dory.

The end result is the scandal that wasn't. The IRS scandal is still the big one.

Agreed about him being in a no win situation. I'd pick Hong Kong over any of those places personally though. They speak English. There's a lot going on there. I like Chinese food. But yes, China would not be my choice of destination if I was worried about a too-powerful-government controlling people's lives.

tryanmax said...

Koshcat, Like I told Andrew above, I've read that the likely reason he picked Hong Kong is because of a snafu in their current extradition law that is being rewritten, meaning that it's unlikely anyone will be extradited during the process. But as days go by, it does sound increasingly like it was a bad move. Shoulda gone straight to Iceland.

tryanmax said...

...it's too easy to frame whatever it is in a negative light...

Yes, but the fact that he ditched his ballerina/model/stripper girlfriend pretty strongly indicates that he is gay. Not that all gays are communists. ;-P

AndrewPrice said...

Yep. Clearly he's gay.

Koshcat said...

GASP!

He may not be gay, he just may not be into ballerina/model/strippers. Maybe he's a chubby chaser.

tryanmax said...

Well, that's just not right, either. ;-)

AndrewPrice said...

Maybe she's psycho and this was all just an elaborate attempt to dump her?

Koshcat said...

It would not have been the first time. Of course, this makes him a coward again. Anyway, the NSA would have been able to predict this based on their texts and facebook posts and would have arrested him prior to fleeing. Tom Cruise and his team would have repelled in through his skylight.

AndrewPrice said...

Yep, that would make him a coward. And yeah, probably wouldn't be the first time. I hear that's how the siege of Troy started.

Speaking of Tom Cruise, it sounds like the NSA is not as secure as Scientology. That's kind of disturbing... on both counts.

T-Rav said...

Well, glad everyone was able to keep the conversation going in my absence. :-)

Andrew, I know a lot of guys who would rather be running from the government than from a psycho quasi-stripper girlfriend. Not saying that's what's going on here, just....just saying.

Individualist said...

Tyranmax

College education requires a committment to spend time and effort as well as money to gain learning. It also teaches a level of professionalism in work that includes an understanding of things like confidentiality.

This is something that I think Snowden lacks. A high school diploma or a GED just is not going to ensure that someone is even prepared for the stress of the job Snowden is dong. As a CPA I could see a lot of things but I have an ethical duty not to disclose them. My only real option is to fire my client or quit my job if there is something I cannot abide.

I don't believe Snowden to be prepared for this and in a way I almost blame the government for hiring him. Ethics requires an understanding and study especially I would imagine with positions in the NSA Based on this guys interviews I don't think he actually understands why he has a duty to keep silent.

A professional would understand that he aids his cause more by staying in the country and willingly turning himself over to authorities directly after his interview with the Guardian. Even being the guy to come forward to tell the government first.

By running and hiding in China he makes himself look as if he is doing something wrong. He brings about questions that allow those in the government who he thinks are doing wrong to essentially marginalize him as a Chinese spy.

I have to wonder how many people in that area are in over their head because I get the feeling Snoweden certainly was. Just my gut feeling.

tryanmax said...

Indie, in other words, you choose not to recognize Snowden's credentials on the grounds that they did not imbue him with certain ethics. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make a wit of sense.

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