Friday, June 28, 2013

Our Wrongs and Our Rights

Well, we've had fun times this week, what with DOMA being struck down and other silliness. Not being a deep and learned scholar of constitutional law like our dear President, I doubt I could say anything as to the legal details of the case or its rights and wrongs. I would, however, like to address this whole notion of gay marriage as a "right."

The lure of accepting gay marriage as an inevitability and even perhaps a positive good is something many conservatives, especially young conservatives, have snapped up, and while I for one refuse to go gently into that good night (or whatever the phrase is), I do, on some level, understand its appeal. Nobody likes to be mean, or to be perceived as mean; and the libertarian ethos that is part and parcel of American conservatism would have a hard time in any climate opposing calls for the freedom to marry. Consider the stance of groups like "Young Conservatives for the Freedom to Marry," which argues that endorsing gay marriage "is in line with our core belief in limited government and individual freedom," not some "partisan issue." Well, I can forgive them that (though not their rejection of opposition as not "a conservative or an American value"). But their rhetoric strikes me all the same as extremely muddle-headed, to say the least, and as indicative of our modern obsession with rights.

Although it seems most glaring today in connection with gay marriage, this is hardly a new obsession. The history of the modern West could almost be summarized as people conceiving of rights and then being determined to get them, no matter how noble or absurd. Consider, for example, the UN's "Universal Declaration of Human Rights," which includes in its list not only the right to marry, the right to equal pay, and the right to free education, but also the right of copyright, the right to an international order, the right to develop one's personality (whatever that means), and the right to "rest and leisure." Well. But are these claims merely laughable, or actually wrong?

Conservatism has always been suspicious of such broad declarations of personal right. And rightly so: Too often, people mean by "right" something nice that they think everyone should be able to have. That is hardly its true meaning, though--rights have never existed in a vacuum, but are always dependent on circumstances and the obligations that go with them. As Russell Kirk put it, more presciently than he knew, in The Conservative Mind: "If a man has a right to marry, some woman [or in this case, some man] must have the duty of marrying him; if a man has a right to rest, some other person must have the duty of supporting him." Rights and obligations: You can rarely have the former without the latter, and in the real world, obligations often take precedence altogether. This is why I never understood the furor over DADT being cast as a matter of one's right to serve in the military. No one has a right to serve in the armed forces; if such a right existed, anyone not drafted could call themselves "oppressed." Military service is, in the final analysis, an obligation which the military authorities include or exclude a man from as they see fit.

Though the two are hardly identical, something similar could be said about the "right to marry," whether it concerns gays or straights. No individual or board has oversight of marriages, it is true. But just as it would be foolish for me to say my rights are being violated if I don't get drafted, what should I say if I'm unlucky in love and can't find a spouse? Who's violating my rights then? The ladies who shot me down? The government for failing to provide me with a wife? Does any of this make sense?

Now maybe you'll say that I'm interpreting this too narrowly. "Right to marry" doesn't mean the right to be provided with a spouse, it means being able to get married if you and another person want to do so. Fair enough (though you really can't call it a "right" in that case). But at no time in history have we permitted the fulfillment of such desires at face value. Incestuous marriages are not allowed; neither are polygamy or group marriages (yet). Feel free to compare those behaviors to homosexuality or not; the point is that restraints on who can get married are and always have been universally accepted, regardless of the banned people's feelings or whether they "love each other."

Concepts like freedom, liberty, and fighting for one's rights are part and parcel of American conservatism, and should not be denied. But in order to do that, we must not confuse libertarianism with libertinism, nor our desires, sexual or otherwise, with actual rights. At its heart, conservatism understands that liberty exists alongside an often-fragile social fabric; where an institution as important to that fabric's continuation as marriage is concerned, accepting a concept like "homosexual marriage" can only come after careful deliberation and weighing of the costs and benefits (if any), and certainly not because it's demanded as a right.

56 comments:

tryanmax said...

Excellent examination of the definition of "rights." People will always try to shirk the necessary aspect of rights that is obligation. Ultimately, those obligations will be imposed upon the people, either by circumstance or a State seeking to avoid such circumstance. It's no shock that a nation like ours, conceived in liberty, should be more prone to shirking responsibility. So, necessarily, when it finally comes down, I should expect it to come down hard.

AndrewPrice said...

Kirk's formulation is wrong. No one is claiming a right to have a marriage, they are claiming a right to engage in marriage -- big difference as the one implies being guaranteed a spouse and the other implies only a right to select a spouse.

In any event, marriage is not a fundamental right under our system. It is a liberty granted by our government. Thus, the question of "a right to marriage" is actually a misstatement of a right of equal protection, i.e. having the same liberties as are granted to others. You can debate whether or not that should be the case, but that is what is going on legally speaking... not that there is a fundamental right to marry, but that there is a right to marry if others are granted that right.

Patriot said...

T-Rav......Good topic. We all too often confuse "rights" with "desires" as you state. This too is where it gets hoary. I don't believe that anyone has ever been denied the "right" to marry. What was being denied was the social designation of the term "marriage." Someone couldn't marry just anyone(thing) they wanted to (Niece, nephew, 9 year old, favorite sheep, etc.) only a member of the opposite sex. Therefore, we have to ask ourselves how and why this social construct of marriage happened over the human existence. To create an orderly society based on creation and raising of orderly children who would not create havoc.

Personally, I could care less what other people want to do with their lives, as long as it doesn't intrude on my pursuit of peace and happiness for me and mine. I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince someone that, while I think their actions are different than mine, just don't f' with me and we'll get along just fine.

Also, why ere they called the "Bill of Rights?" I think people have been designating "rights" for quite a while now.

Remember this?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Granted, that's the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. More a statement of position, rather than the 'laws' that the Constitution laid out.

Yet, for a functioning/orderly society you really can't beat these functional "rights" of men:

1) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
4) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
5) Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
6) Thou shalt not kill.
7) Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8) Thou shalt not steal.
9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

I'm not getting all "evangelical" here, (heck, I haven't been to church in ages) but these are some pretty basic rules to live by. Good place to start, no?

T-Rav said...

Thanks tryanmax, and happy birthday, if I have my dates correct. :-)

Your comment sums up the sad truth--American liberty can only function if its people are virtuous and preserve it as it was meant to be, not by going to excess and claiming every desire as a right. I often think back to Plato in The Republic when he warned that the last stage in any polity before it came to tyranny was pure mob democracy, in which every vice was condoned as personal expression worthy of respect. We haven't done a good job of avoiding that fate so far.

tryanmax said...

You have your dates correct, indeed. And thank you very much!

AndrewPrice said...

Well Happy Birthday! :D

T-Rav said...

Andrew, I figured you would make that distinction, something I tried to address in my article (perhaps not as fully as I should).

I suppose the extent to which I agree with your comment depends on whether you are saying that marriage originates with and cannot exist apart from the government. If that were the case, the gay-marriage lobby might have slightly firmer ground to stand on (though even then it could not be said that their desires should trump all other concerns). My opinion, though, is that it does exist apart from the state, which in that case has no standing to grant this "liberty" to anyone other than a man and a woman. May not be a perfect formulation of my opinions, but there it is.

T-Rav said...

(It's my birthday as well, guys. Just saying.)

AndrewPrice said...

What the hell? This is like a conspiracy of birthdays!

Happy Birthday T-Rav!!

T-Rav said...

Very true, Patriot, which is why I pointed out the need for an ordered society as a complement to liberty. The idea of someone marrying a child or an animal (not that gay marriage necessarily opens the door to these) based on personal freedom makes a mockery of both those needs.

As for the Ten Commandments, despite non-believers misgivings about the first few, many are of course accepted in principle as necessary for the functioning of society. Only in the past half-century or so have they been controversial for either side; make of that what you will.

T-Rav said...

:-)

tryanmax said...

I feel like a dolt for forgetting! Happy Birthday, T-Rav!

(Incidentally, I wouldn't remember my own if it weren't for 1000 notices on Facebook, vs. the normal 2.)

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, There are two sources of marriage. There is marriage recognized by religion and marriage recognized by the state. They are different. And the problem is that people are blurring the two.

Religious marriage comes from whatever source the religion claims. Christians say it comes from God. Muslims... well, who the hell knows. Scientologists claim it comes from the spaghetti aliens. And these religions can put whatever limits or obligations on the institution they believe their god demands. That is what people think of when they say "marriage."

State marriage comes from the powers vested in the government under the constitution. It does not come from a religious source. Indeed, it can't. For one thing, our government was not created by God, it was created by the consent of the citizens of the United States, who gave up natural freedoms in exchange for a communal form of government. Thus, it cannot claim an alternative source of authority, i.e. God. Its authority is limited to the powers outlined in the document establishing it.

Under that document, Congress has the power to grant the liberty-right of marriage if it believes that is in the government's interest, but the Constitution itself does not provide such a right to citizens. Thus, should Congress so decide, it could wipe out "marriage" in the US and government marriage would end. Religious marriage would continue because Congress has no right to stop that, but the state version would vanish.

The catch for gay marriage opponents is this. When the government hands out rights, it cannot discriminate against citizens without a sufficient reason. Thus, so long as the government chooses to make government-sanctioned marriage a right, it cannot discriminate without a sufficiently legitimate reason. I cannot see a valid basis for discriminating against gays in that regard.

Further, there is a real problem in that the public (and many Congress critters) are trying to blur the line by calling government marriage the same as religious marriage. That's legally wrong BUT if it is somehow accepted by the courts, it will lead to a serious problem for religious marriage in the future because that would allow the government might try to impose government rules on churches. Fortunately, the courts should prevent that, but you never know. That's actually why it's safest for opponents to get the government out of marriage asap.

Anthony said...

T-Rav,

Every philosophy of government I've ever heard of cites the greater good/social fabric as justification for its infringements upon liberty.

I fail to see how gays getting married can harm heterosexual marriage provided the people in the marriage are actual heterosexuals.

As marriage, it is only as serious as the two people making the vow. Lots of people enter marriage easily and leave it just as easily, some stay in it easily because they don't take its core tenet seriously (Clearly Mrs. Clinton doesn't expect fidelity from Mr. Clinton).

From a broader perspective, I suspect the problems of marriage spring not from gays or even culture, but economics/a changing world.

Increased opportunities for women has had a negative impact on marriage because they have translated into women getting married later, having fewer kids and leaving marriage easier (or even not entering it) because they have their own means of support.

Its also worth noting that communication and transportation technology is such that cheating is easier than ever for the average person.

Anthony said...

Happy birthday T-Rav and tryanmax!

T-Rav said...

tryanmax, I don't have that question because I'm always asked ahead of time what I want to do for my birthday, thereby reminding me that I'm getting another year older (though not, as yet, deeper in debt).

T-Rav said...

Thanks for the well-wishes, Anthony!

As to your comments, I have no doubt that's what a lot of people would say--that us opponents are just trying to justify our restriction of liberty--but that dodges the question at hand. No serious person claims that a given right should be enjoyed unfettered; even with the right to free speech, there's the thing about "clear and present danger," etc. Liberty, as such, has always been restricted or managed in some way; the question is how, and why.

Now if you personally fail to see X (which is not in itself an argument against the existence of X), well and good. I wasn't debating that, so much. But you shouldn't automatically ascribe bad motives to those standing in opposition to it.

tryanmax said...

T-Rav, load 16 tons and see what happens.

BevfromNYC said...

Okay, HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO EVERYONE!! [that should cover me for the rest of the year...jeez, what is it about the end of June and the first of July??]

I may be the only one here that sees no issue with same- sex marriage though I think that the state should only be able to sanction civil unions. Where everyone gets hung up is on "marriage" a millennia old religious institution. European countries resolved this long ago by separating the two..

AndrewPrice said...

Bev, I'm July 8! :)

I have no issues with same sex marriage either. I've spent a lot of timing thinking about the reasons pro and con and I just don't see any legitimate reasons to oppose it.

Anthony said...

T-Rav,

I wasn't ascribing bad motives to anyone, my point was that governing philosophies tend to cite the greater good to justify the power and actions of governments (no matter the governments and no matter the actions).

I'm not claiming marriage should be an unfettered right, I'm saying I see no point in drawing the line at homosexuals because as I've stated, I don't see how gay marriage impacts straight marriage.

In my humble opinion, marriages are only as strong as the people inside them. That has always been the case and will always be the case. Why and how do you think that gay marriages will impact heterosexual marriage?

Patriot said...

Did you all hear that Obama will allow churches to still conduct marriages as they see fit?

“On an issue as sensitive as this, knowing that Americans hold a wide range of views based on deeply held beliefs, maintaining our nation’s commitment to religious freedom is also vital. How religious institutions define and consecrate marriage has always been up to those institutions. Nothing about this decision – which applies only to civil marriages – changes that.”

Now, why would he have to come right out immediately after the ruling and state that unless there is an ulterior motive? And no...I don't trust him on anything!

Patriot said...

Sorta contradicts his contraception benefit that he's forcing on religious institutions. Once the churches started accepting their government subsidized/approved tax free status, they opened the door to the gov't intruding on their beliefs and traditional practices.

Tennessee Jed said...

your points are well taken Rav. People get caught up in verbiage. The Constitution does speak of establishing justice, promoting the general welfare, and securing the blessings of liberty. Even the Bill of Rights leaves plenty of wiggle room due to verbiage.

AndrewPrice said...

Patriot, "why would he have to come right out immediately after the ruling and state that unless there is an ulterior motive?"

How about this? He's saying it because that is what opponents have been SCREAMING about him, and now is the right time to refute that. There's no mystery there. This is the perfect time to assure the public that he's not being unreasonable or trying to act illegally. And in the process, he makes his critics look like fools.

AndrewPrice said...

Patriot, That's the problem with taking government money... it comes with strings attached.

T-Rav said...

Anthony, I couldn't disagree that the strength of the institution depends on the strength of its members. You certainly won't catch me denying that heterosexuals make marriage look pretty laughable at times--though to my mind, rolling back things like no-fault divorce would be a better remedy than extending the institution to gays and thus debasing it still further.

Given that gay marriage is still a very new innovation and I have no firsthand experience of it, I can hardly say specifically how it would affect heterosexual marriage (beyond having to awkwardly explain to my hypothetical future children why Chris and Steve live together and such). Even in Europe, where this stuff has been around a bit longer, there is little if any direct evidence showing an effect on heterosexual marriage. What there is, though, is not encouraging. The countries which have legalized same-sex marriage have tended to see the rates of single-parent households, cohabitation, etc. stay the same or increase. This may not seem like a big deal, and as we all know, correlation is not causation. At the very least, though, we can put to bed the notion that gay marriage will save the institution, as a few activists were ridiculously claiming.

And no, I realize that doesn't really answer your question. Like I said, we're not far enough in to see what good or harm it would do; but one ought to know that in a society like ours, changes like this never occur in a vacuum.

T-Rav said...

tryanmax, happily we have neither coal nor company stores in this neck of the woods. So I won't be indebted as a result. :-)

T-Rav said...

Andrew, as far as valid reasons for discriminating against gays on marriage are concerned--you probably won't consider this "valid," but what about the raising of children? That is, after all, the main purpose of the institution in the first place--not to signify two people's "commitment" to each other, but to ensure the rearing of kids in a reasonably stable environment. (Granted, we've done a pretty crappy job of that lately, but I digress.)

At its core, gay marriage (as well as gay adoption and so on) rests on the claim that the difference between genders is essentially irrelevant, that it doesn't matter whether Heather has two mommies or two daddies or a mom and a dad, so longer as they shower her with love and tell her she's their Special Snowflake and so on and so on. And just between partners in a marriage, "Love is love." Or something.

Now, if this is the position you take, then no, I don't suppose there is much of a reason to oppose gay marriage. If you believe, however, that it does make a difference for Heather to have a mother and a father in a home together, that's a different story. If the government is still charged with promoting the "general welfare," and if a case can be made that heterosexual marriage does more to promote that welfare than any alternative, then there is a way to oppose gay marriage on a legal basis.

And you'll probably disagree with the majority of my comment, which is fine; I'm just proposing one means by which it might be done.

T-Rav said...

And also, look--let me just lay all my cards on the table here; I am not one of those people who say, "I'm just as much in favor of gay people finding happiness together as the next guy, I just don't want them to call it marriage." I have always found homosexuality loathsome, and none of my contacts with gays or lesbians have done anything to change that. If they were all like the sweet, super-smart kids on Glee (which they are not), that would do nothing to change my opinion, and few things arouse more personal ire in me than to hear their "struggles" compared to what blacks went through in the '60s. I'm not looking to offend anyone with this statement, I'm just laying out where I personally stand, if that wasn't already clear.

That said, I do recognize a difference between a moral wrong and a legal wrong, and like most people, I can't really lay out a consistent legal case for opposition to gay marriage. The best I can do is the best I can do, and if that's not enough, so be it. Even so, I'm not about to endorse it, on constitutional or any other grounds. That is, in short, where I stand on the matter.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, If that were the case, then I would agree. But I've seen no evidence of it. And that's the problem. Opponents have had decades now to compare children raised in gay households with children raised in heterosexual households and they have yet to produce any valid studies that show that children are harmed from living with gay parents. To the contrary, the little bit of data I've seen says that children of gay parents are well adjusted. So in the absence of that, I can't accept the idea.

In all honesty, I was very much opposed to gay marriage because it "felt wrong" to me. But personal dislike is not a good enough reason for me to support or oppose government policy. So I tried to find reasons to justify my opposition. I went through all the arguments I could find. And in the end, I found nothing valid to oppose it. All the arguments against came down to either totally unsupported claims of horrors to come (claims that have been disproven by experience now) or arguments based on simple dislike of gays. In that type of circumstance, I can't in good conscience support legal discrimination.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, I've known a lot of gays and I see them pretty much just like other people... some are nice, some are jerks, and most of their activists are real sh*ts. But I can say the same thing about the opponents. Some are nice, some are jerks, and most of the activists are real sh*ts.

And for me, the issue isn't how I feel about them because I don't tend to view my personal prejudices as a valid basis for the use of government power. To me, it's a simple matter that gays have stated a legitimate case of discrimination and the opponents have not presented a valid basis to justify the discrimination.

T-Rav said...

Andrew, that's more or less been my experience. A couple of gays I have genuinely liked, a few others I tolerated, one or two I couldn't stand. That's just how it is.

As for the raising of children, I have seen studies suggesting that those raised in gay households often do have behavioral problems and are even slightly more likely to be gay themselves; but it would take a lot of digging for me to try and find those again. And I think part of the problem is that so many heterosexual households today are so dysfunctional to begin with, there's not a good yardstick to measure against. As the product of a single-parent household, though, I will say that while outwardly I seem fairly well-adjusted and "normal," I believe my siblings and I would have benefitted greatly from our father being around, even though he was not and is not the most pleasant individual. It's the sort of thing that's not easily quantifiable; and of course, there's the rub, since a modern society like ours runs on quantifiable information.

Bottom line: We must agree to disagree. I'm sure most gay parents do love their children, but I cannot for a second believe that they are just as beneficial for the raising of those children as two, present, heterosexual parents would be. And if it can be proven that they are not, opponents will have more of a leg to stand on.

Anonymous said...

Andrew, I know this is off-topic, but I'd like another lawyer's opinion on the state of the George Zimmerman trial. From everything I've read and listened to (including the court footage with the so-called 'star witnesses'), the prosecution's case seems to be imploding.
Yesterday, while listening to Hannity, a one guest lawyer said, 'it feels like the prosecution is doing the defense's heavy lifting." Later that night, on Hannity's TV show, another analyst said, "if that was their best witness, I'd hate to see their worst."
I mean, their 'star' admitted to changing her story multiple times, not being able to read her own letter, and that c****** isn't a racial slur, among too more other things.
But then there's the part that really rankled me. One witness who heard the scream (but didn't see what happened) admitted changing their story because of the media. All last year- the station I was working at included- the media showed a 12-year-old pic of Martin. The witness said that seeing that photo and video of Zimmerman convinced them that Zimmerman must have been attacking Martin. Now that they saw Martin's pic as a 17-year-old, the witness changed their mind. (You should've heard me swearing up a storm in the control booth when I pointed this out last year...following the revelation of NBC's selective editing of the 911 calls.)
Sorry for the rant. Also, did you see the article on Drudge where a former cop is predicting Rodney King-style riots in multiple cities if Zimmerman is acquitted? He even advised people living in such cities to be ready to evacuate, or stock up on guns, fire suppressants, and food and water because law enforcement will likely be outmatched.
Here's the LINK.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, I guess.

-Rustbelt

Anonymous said...

Also...Happy Birthday, T-Rav and tryanmax!

How did the two of you get your lucky day on an internationally historic date?

-Rustbelt

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, We can agree to disagree. :)

As an aside, on gay parents having gay kids, it wouldn't surprise me because I suspect being gay is a genetic issue.

AndrewPrice said...

Rustbelt, Ug... ug... ug.

I haven't paid too much attention to it, but I did read a bit last night and I saw some video of their "star witnesses." Here are some thoughts.

First, people do lie for a lot of reasons, some good and some bad. She claims she lied because she thought it would help her avoid testifying and that she lied to protect the family. Is that believable? Certainly. Can a jury overlook that? In a heartbeat. Will they overlook it from her? That's where the problem starts.

She comes across as someone with no credibility at all, not the way she behaves. Add in that there seems to be a contradictory personality there -- "I lied because I didn't want to be involved" versus a sense that she's an angry young racist who is more than happy to take down a "cracker." In my experience, almost no jurors will believe her because of the way she has behaved. That means, what she says will be disbelieved. And if she was my star witness, I would be really, really worried.

In fact, even if they believe her, she offers virtually nothing by way of evidence that matters. And that's the real problem for the prosecution -- unless they have something hidden, they don't have the evidence for a reasonable jury to convict Zimmerman.


THAT SAID... there are a lot of blacks who are trying to turn this into a race issue. They were arguing on twitter and in articles yesterday that she's completely credible and only racists would think she's not. They were also arguing that the defense attorney is racist for trying to impeach her testimony -- something they would never say if the defendant had been black. There was even a lot of talk about how blacks have it so badly in this country that whites can't possibly understand that lies and disrespect and hostility are a natural black condition. This is all an attempt to stir up racial animosity.

Moreover, they are using false logic to try to tie her misbehavior to an acquittal. Basically, they are saying: "She is being dismissed because whites are racists. If they weren't racists, they would see that she is telling the truth. If she is telling the truth, then Zimmerman would be convicted." Only, that's a totally false chain of logic. One person's testimony never results in a conviction unless it's an eye witness of the actual event... she's not an eye witness of anything except Martin's first impression of Zimmerman. But they want people to believe that her testimony would have resulted in a conviction if only whites weren't racist and had listened to her. It's despicable.

Anonymous said...

Andrew, your analysis is spot on. The only thing I would add- something that was also brought up yesterday- is that her admitted use of racist language may have changed the scope of the case. It went from evil Zimmerman hunting a scared, frightened Martin to Zimmerman following an angry, ready-to-just-beat-up-random-white-guy Martin. I've learned from watching specials on famous cases (namely the Greensboro shooting in 1979 between the KKK and Communist Workers Party) that prosecutors can't rely on forensic evidence alone, since jurors can get bored. They need witnesses to humanize the victims. In that case, they didn't have any CWP witnesses who would cooperate. In this case, the witness seems to have humanized Martin in exactly the wrong way.

Oh, geez. I need to take a break from this case or my brain's logic center might suffer an aneurysm. This whole thing- like the Hernandez case- is just screaming for the 'American Justice'.Bill Kurtis treatment 10 years from now.

Oh, and to clear something up from my other post...today is a rather unfortunate date, as it marks the start of the unofficial chain of events that leads up to World War I. Since we have no Presidential or off-year elections this summer, I was going to give updates (and selections from my wide world of quotes) on just what happened 99 years ago, step by step. Call it one of the great blunders in human history. However, if you think it would too off-topic, I'll hold back. Please let me know what you think.

-Rustbelt

T-Rav said...

Thanks, Rustbelt! I learned earlier that we also share a birthday with Mel Brooks; how about that?

As far as the Zimmermann case and the witness testimony goes, it seemed to me that the young woman in question was being openly contemptuous of the defense attorney, which is rarely something you want to see on the other side. Add to that another of the prosecution's own witnesses basically admitting Zimmermann was getting beaten up, and this whole case is on the verge of collapsing. And that's a good thing.

Anonymous said...

T-Rav, the only appropriate (and, I suppose, obvious) thing to say to that would be:

"It's good to be the king!"

And yes, speaking as an observer and a non-lawyer, I agree this case appears to be collapsing. It'll be a good thing for the truth to finally come out. Exactly how the country digests it will be another thing.

And since I mentioned it above, here's the June 28th edition of "Countdown to Catastrophe:"

-Rustbelt

Anonymous said...

-“One day, the great European War will come out of some damned foolish thing in the Balkans."
-Otto von Bismarck, Imperial German Chancellor 1871- 1890

JUNE 28TH, 1914:

Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife, Countess Sophie Chotek, are assassinated in Sarajevo in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Archduke- heir to the Austrian and Hungarian thrones- had been on a tour inspecting military maneuvers (in SW Bosnia). The trip included stops designed to increase ‘good faith’ in the province, which had been annexed by the Austrian-Hungarian Empire in 1908.
Conspirators backed by the ‘Black Hand’- a radical group of Serbian army officers aimed at uniting all Serbians living in foreign countries into a ‘kingdom of the southern Slavs’ (‘Yugoslavia’)-smuggle bombs and pistols into the city. After a failed bombing attempt, one of the murderers, 20-year-old Gavrilo Princip, succeeds when the Archduke’s car stops while passing in front of him on the street and he fires two shots. The royal couple are dead within minutes and Princip- along with several other conspirators- is quickly arrested.

“That’s rich! We come here to visit this city and we are greeted with bombs. Very well, go on.”
-Archduke Franz Ferdinand interrupting the prepared speech at Sarajevo’s City Hall by the (highly embarrassed) Mayor Fehim Effendi following the first motorcade- in which Franz Ferdinand deflected a bomb that had been thrown at his car by Nedeljko Cabrinovic (who was quickly arrested)

“Sophie! Sophie! Don’t die! Stay alive for our children!”
-Franz Ferdinand to his wife, Sophie, after both were shot by Princip

“It is nothing. It is nothing.”
-Franz Ferdinand’s last words to his aides

“A higher power has restored that order which unfortunately I was unable to maintain.”
-Franz Joseph, Emperor of Austria and Apostolic King of Hungary

AndrewPrice said...

Rustbelt, What do you have against WWI? ;P

On Zimmerman, sometimes you can't escape the hard evidence. But when you don't have hard evidence, personality counts. That's why defense attorneys make a big deal to get their clients into suits and get them haircuts and tell them not to act like jackasses throughout the trial.

From what I've seen, I'm not really sure why the prosecution brought this case except they were too afraid not to bring it -- political pressure. And unless they come up with something secret that no one has heard yet (which isn't really possible), then I think their case is doomed and will fizzle.

Personally, I would bet that they are hoping to get Zimmerman on the stand and build a case by cross examining him and making him appear unlikable. I doubt they can do it, but that's probably their best bet.

(p.s. I used to love those American Justice shows.)

Anonymous said...

Andrew said...

"Rustbelt, What do you have against WWI? ;P"

French involvement. It's like putting together a well-laid plan and taking away reason and accountability- and making everyone wear red trousers.

-Rustbelt

AndrewPrice said...

Yeah, it is hard to have a serious war when the French are involved.

Oh, and not just red pants, but puffy red pants.

El Gordo said...

Now, now, be fair. The French did away with the red pantaloons very quickly. They suffered 1,3 million deaths and built some of the best airplanes of the war. I also hear they fielded the most effective Corps of prostitutes of any country (aka corpsgirls, never to be mistaken for choirgirls).

On the other hand I blame them for getting the US army hooked on effete metric calibers like "105 mm" and "155 mm".

El Gordo said...

About the children brought up by gays, they may have problems or not. The real problem is: We as a society do not WANT to know. Because there might be politically incorrect implications to knowing. You see that quite often nowadays. We wouldn´t want to act on what we might find out. This despite the fact that we have discovered a thousand other reasons to take children away from their parents.

A pc society is a barbaric society, not an enlightened one.

Only a small minority of social scientists in America can be trusted to produce a totally objective study on the subject. And minorities are meaningless. The rest will only be objective by accident, that is, if the objective results happen to be consistent with the already predetermined pc conclusion. That may actually be the correct one, and let´s not forget that gays should not have to meet a higher standard than every other group. But we have arrived at a point where I believe we would be prepared to sacrifice a few children to make a point. Just as we are prepared to send women into combat to make a point.

Anthony said...

As I said in the old Zimmerman thread, I think Zimmerman was playing cop and Martin (who had no idea he was a play cop with anger issues and not a mugger) didn't play along and beat him down the way a sane mane would beat down a possibly armed nutjob who followed him into an alley, so the insane and armed Zimmerman killed him.

Granted, the star witness is an idiot, but nothing she stated or that has come out during the trial conflicts with my theory. The case isn't going well for the prosecution at this point and unless things improve, its reasonable for a jury to let Zimmerman get away with it.

Hopefully the next person Zimmerman plays cop with has the weapons or physical skill to end his idiocy permanently.

AndrewPrice said...

El Gordo, An army's got to have its priorities and prostitutes are probably pretty high on that list. LOL!

On the social science, this lies squarely at the feet of conservatives. They have more than enough resources and legitimate think tanks and related personnel that they could be doing research on all conservative causes... but they don't. Instead, they just gnash their teeth that liberals won't do the work for them.

If conservatives had studied the gay issue and come up with something legitimate, liberals researchers would need to answer. But they haven't. It's the same thing with pot right now. They run around wringing their hands screaming utter fantasy about how pot makes you insane and then they scream "think about the children!" And they're losing that war because there isn't one bit of data anyone can point to to refute the argument "I'm not hurting anyone."

The only conservative group I can think of that actually supports their cause with data is the NRA. All the rest just hope the left does it for them. And conservatives need to learn that as long as they rely on the left to provide the science, they will lose every single fight.

AndrewPrice said...

Anthony, I have no opinion on Zimmerman's personality, but legally speaking I see no evidence that could possible lead to conviction. If I was determined to get him, I would have charged him with negligent homicide and hoped the jury just decided to whack him for the simple fact that they don't think he should have been there.

In terms of what the star witnesses said, she hasn't change the facts at all, but the facts never supported a conviction and I suspect that anything she said will simply be ignored by the jury.

T-Rav said...

Anthony, "end his idiocy permanently"? Please tell me you're not suggesting what it really sounds like you're suggesting.

El Gordo said...

Andrew, I agree conservatives should have data before they take a position. Of course if conservative institutions did this, they would still be a minority and they would find themselves in an "anti-gay" position once again, and being attacked for it, data or not. But it beats operating on instinct, which we have done often enough. The fact remains that the many non-conservative scientists - universities across the country and the world - are dancing around a fairly straightforward question. What are they good for? They call themselves scientists but behave like priests. That runs counter to what western civilization stands for which is why I call them barbarians.

"They run around wringing their hands screaming utter fantasy about how pot makes you insane."

Insane? Seriously, I could need some right now to keep me sane.

I knew one such case but she really overdid it. If she had been drinking alcohol it might have been worse. People can evidently live without a brain but not without a liver :-)

AndrewPrice said...

El Gordo, That's true, and that's why the right can't rely on the left to do their research for them. The left is not going to do us any favors, so we need to do the work ourselves. And arguing with them when they can point to science (shoddy thought it may be) and we're let pointing at nothing is a losing proposition.

It's the same thing in the attorney world. When someone is charged with a crime, the government only does the tests that it thinks will convict, they don't do the tests that will hurt their case. If you want those done, you need to hire your own experts to do it. Just attacking the government tests normally is not enough.

There's no reason that conservatives can't do the studies themselves or sponsor researchers to do it for them. Industry does it all the time. The NRA does it. Yet, conservatives don't. They rely on liberal colleges to do the research. That's a problem. (Or even worse, they point to rare studies done by whackos that are easily discredited on their face.)

Yeah, the pot stuff is out of control. Everyone knows that pot is mostly harmless compared to other drugs. It does make you stupid and lazy over the long term, but it doesn't have a lot of other negative side-effects. Yet, I keep running into legalization opponents who tell stories of people going crazy and of first time users dying from just smoking one joint, etc. etc. It's utter BS. And it does not help the opponents of legalization at all. It would help a lot, if they studied crime rates, poverty rates, medical costs, IQ/grades, child-social-services incidents, etc. Instead, they troop out stories about "I've seen lives destroyed!!" followed by "everyone knows this!" That's why they're losing a battle they should be winning.

Anthony said...

Andrew,

Are you saying its a bad idea to cite the terrible things seen in Reefer Madness as an argument against legalization?

AndrewPrice said...

Anthony, Surprisingly, no. LOL!

But in all seriousness, the argument always seems to go like this:

A: Pot is bad for you!
B: In what way?
A: Everybody knows.
B: I don't.
A: Then you're one of them!
B: No, I'm not. Tell me what's bad about pot.
A: It will ruin your life.
B: How?
A: I've read about people who went crazy smoking pot. And there was that guy in the paper who ____(insert obviously false urban legend).
B: Do you have any proof?
A: Who needs proof! Everyone knows! Think about the children. It's even worse on them.
B: What's worse?
A: If kids take pot, it will really harm them.
B: How?
A: You're just being difficult.

Message: A doesn't have a clue what A is talking about.

That's the reason the anti-pot people are losing, when they should be winning. It would help a lot to be able to point out some actual facts.

tryanmax said...

Hey, Reefer Madness is true! And the musical is even truer! Pot really does make you an excellent singer.

AndrewPrice said...

Speaking of pot, here's some research which shows that it actually does make you lazy because it lowers the dopamine level in the brain:

LINK

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