Friday, October 12, 2012

The Ryan and the Jackass

Joe Biden is a vile human being. He’s a liar, a fool and he won’t stop exploiting his dead wife. And last night, his plan was to lie and throw as much fake mud as needed to make the entire debate incomprehensible. In that, he was successful. Nothing of substance will be remembered from this debate. Sadly for Joe, what will be remembered is his crapulence.

Likeability: Between his constant interruptions and the whirlwind of bullsh*t he unleashed, Joe Biden basically made it impossible to take away any substance from this debate. Unfortunately for him, his performance was a disgrace. He smirked, snarled, scoffed, interrupted and condescended all night. He came across like a jackal. I have never seen a debate where one participant acted this shamefully. His behavior was honestly beneath the dignity of the office.

What’s even more bizarre are the things he laughed at. He laughed at Iran getting a nuclear bomb. He laughed at Ryan talking about Romney helping a family in need and giving money to charity. He even abused the moderator the one time she asked him a hard question and basically accused her of bias: “you be straight with me.”

His bad manners was all the talking heads talked about, and early polls suggest that it cost Biden the debate. CNBC has Ryan winning 56% to 36%. CNN’s poll has Ryan winning 48% to 44%.

Ryan’s Failure: I don’t see Ryan as the winner however, so much as he’s just not the loser. Ryan’s made four mistakes. First, he essentially brought a textbook to a “yo’ mama so fat” contest whereas he needed a strategy to call out Biden on his lies and his disgraceful behavior. Secondly, he let the biased moderator push him around. He needed to stop letting her cut off his good answers mid-stream. Third, he lacked a unified theme to give the audience something to take home. Fourth, he needed to connect more dots to exploit his victories. For example, when Biden lied about Catholic hospitals being happy with Obamacare, Ryan countered with “then why are they suing Obama?” This was excellent, but he failed to press this point and explain it clearly. Never make the audience think!

Stop Criticizing Jim Lehrer: I saw virtually no bias out of Jim Lehrer. Raddatz, on the other hand, was bias incarnate. She gave Joe free rein of questions, tossed him softballs, and advocated for Obama while throwing harsh, biased questions at Ryan. More importantly, she interrupted Ryan every single time he got on a roll. She also took attacks Biden made and demand Ryan answer those, but never once questioned Joe about anything Ryan alleged. This was an unbelievably prejudiced performance.

One particularly amazing example of a biased question was when she started her question on Afghanistan by claiming that Obama had succeeded in defeating al Qaeda, had all but wiped out the Taliban, had stabilized the country, and had basically won the war. Then she asked Ryan why he wanted to keep troops there indefinitely in light of that. The problem is, none of that is true, nor is Ryan advocating keeping troops there.

Some things Slow Joe said: If Joe’s lips were moving, he was lying, and I mean that. He used fake numbers. He invented events. He claimed personal knowledge of things that didn’t happen and denied things that are on tape. He invented policy positions for Romney and attacked his own straw men. Here is what he said:
● Joe scoffed at the idea that the Democrats ever controlled both the White House and the Congress.

● Joe blamed Obama’s conflicting lies on Libya on the intelligence community. The same community he swears will tell us the precise moment Iran is ready to build a bomb.

● Joe said Iran isn’t building a bomb. Even the IAEA disagrees with this. His “logic” was that they are only making the radioactive material needed for the bomb, but not the bomb itself. That’s a logical and factual pile of crap. Joe also laughed when Ryan said that if Iran isn’t stopped, others in the area will try to build the bomb as well. This has long been acknowledged as true on both sides of the political spectrum.

● Joe said that they got the toughest sanctions ever on Iran (ignore all those tougher sanctions on Cuba and the Soviet Union). He laughed at the idea that Russia watered them down, which they did. He pretended that this would stop Iran from selling oil, even though they are selling directly to China.

● He promised Obama would get whoever killed our ambassador to Libya, which sounded extremely hollow and like fake bravado when he said it. And he actually claimed that Romney didn’t want to see Obama bin Laden killed.

● He said Israel was lying when they claimed Obama’s policies differed from theirs.

● He kept accusing Romney of wanting to start a war in Syria before claiming that Romney’s policy was exactly like Obama’s and that Romney couldn’t identify a single difference. When Ryan identified differences, Joe ignored those and falsely accused Romney of wanting to send ground troops.

● He claimed Obamacare does not force religious institutions to fund or provide contraception or abortion, even though it does and even though those same institutions have sued Obama to stop it. This was right after saying that Ryan wanted to force his views on other religions and claiming he would never do that. He also tried to attribute the comments of Todd Akin about there being different kinds of rape to Paul Ryan.

● Joe kept repeating the 47% line, which Romney has explained and disowned. He blamed Bush for Obama’s failures, and refused to address a single point in Obama’s record.

● He kept trying to scare seniors by claiming Romney wants to privatize Social Security or Medicare (something Romney is not advocating).

● He exploited his dead wife, as he shamelessly does in every debate he’s ever been in.

● He kept using long debunked claims about Romney wanting a $5 trillion tax cut. He lied about Obama’s own tax numbers, claiming Obama only wants to tax millionaires. He lied about the waste and fraud in the “green jobs” loans Obama made. He lied about Ryan passing budgets to slash education (education spending went up, not down).

● Joe kept claiming he spent his life fighting for Main Street against Wall Street, even though he used to be scoffingly referred to as the Senator from MBNA for his efforts to help big banks squeeze the middle class on fees and to make it harder to discharge credit card debt in bankruptcy.

● On the one trillion in automatic cuts coming from the military, the moderator first tried to take those off the table to help Joe, but he blundered right back into them. Then he bizarrely claimed that the Republicans asked for those (even though it was Obama/Reid), that Ryan even claimed “I’ve been looking for this moment a long time,” that Biden would never agree with those cuts and wanted to stop them, but that they were necessary and the military wants them because they want to be “smaller and leaner” and thus Joe supports them. . . but Ryan is evil for proposing them. Good luck figuring that one out. He also simultaneously claimed Ryan wanted the trillion in cuts while also wanting two trillion in new military spending. Hmm.
Some things Ryan said: Ryan made some solid points, but I don’t think any of them will be remembered because they were buried in Biden-grade bullsh*t. Here is what he said:
● He said that we are seeing the unraveling of Obama’s foreign policy all across the Middle East. This is something even the left is admitting. Indeed, Der Spiegel had a run down of everyone making this point recently and it was a huge list. Unlike Romney, Ryan did not elaborate.

● Ryan said Obama has done nothing to slow Iran from getting the bomb. He said that taking the military option off the table, putting distance between us and Israel, allowing Russia and China to water down the sanctions the Congress wanted (fyi, a bipartisan bill), and granting 20 waivers on those sanctions has sent a green light to Iran to continue.

● He attacked Obama for letting Russia dictate policy on Syria, for waiting too long to take action and for calling Assad a reformer.

● He attacked Obama for giving a precise timeline in Afghanistan, though he and Romney agree with the general timeline, and for withdrawing American troops while still requiring those who are left to continue the same missions and level of effort. Biden countered that the Afghans are taking over those jobs, but that is not true.

● He said that Obama’s strategy of hope and change had turned into “attack, blame and defame” and he pointed out that Obama and Biden were smearing Romney because they had no record they could run on. And in that regard, he pointed out Obama’s list of broken promises, though he did not do this nearly as well as Romney: (1) no one loses their healthcare under Obamacare, even though 20 million will, (2) middle class taxes won’t go up for anyone earning less than $250,000 a year (“millionaires”), but Obamacare raises 20 taxes on the middle class, (3) healthcare costs will go down under Obama, but they are up $2,500, (4) the deficit would be cut in half, but it doubled in size, and (5) he would unite us. There’s a lot he missed here.

● He explained Romney’s tax plan, which is to lower rates across the board ($1.3 trillion in cuts) but to offset that by eliminating deductions which the rich use ($1.2 trillion) for a net change of zero dollars, with a shift of the actual tax burden up onto the rich and away from the middle class. He was going to explain how this will lead to 7 million new jobs, but let himself be cut off. He said they would not accept tax cuts that (1) increased the deficit, (2) increased taxes on the middle class, or (3) resulted in a downward shift of the tax burden.

● He pointed out that the average tax rate on business in the world is 25% and that Obama wants to raise the tax rate on small business form 28% to 44.8%.

● He pointed out the big lie in Obama’s class warfare rhetoric of “the rich paying their fair share” by noting that if we taxed the rich at 100%, it would only fund the government for 90 days. So when Obama says he will raise taxes on the rich to pay for more spending, he’s lying about the revenue source.
All in all, I think this debate will be forgotten. Joe lost because he was extremely unlikable. But that won’t hurt Obama because no one will vote on the basis of liking or not liking Joe Biden. I think the left will be thrilled at Joe’s boorish behavior and the right will be incensed, and moderates will scratch their heads and wonder why they didn’t watch the football game. The theme I would hope conservative run with from this is the lengths to which Joe and Obama will go to avoid discussing their record.

Thoughts? Anything I missed?

99 comments:

Joel Farnham said...

I especially hated Biden talking at the end. It was like he was trying to seduce the moderator. In comparison at the end, Ryan made me think I was dealing with a straight to the bottom line executive.

Andrew, You are right. Biden is like a tar baby.

Anthony said...

I fell asleep before the debate. Doesn't sound like I missed much.

Joel Farnham said...

Watching the debate, another thought that occurred to me was, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull@#$%."

LL said...

Yes. And I think that it was a very large issue. The issue of a woman's right to choose. That was a big win for Biden in this debate. Likely the only thing that he will take away. Ryan came off as more stridently pro-life (which he and Romney are) and Biden left the impression that he did not want to push his religious views on the nation.

My opinion on the subject of abortion aside, there are a lot of votes tied to that and tomorrow, you'll hear a lot about "Romney's war on women". Ryan was tired by the time the moderator put the question to them, but it was calculated to be a poison pill to the Republicans and it worked. No doubt, rehearsed by Biden a number of times so that he'd get it "right".

Did it cost the Republicans the election? I don't know. I am not inclined to think so, but the liberal negative campaign will go on the immediate attack. We will see the issue resurface next Tuesday in the second Presidential debate and Romney needs to be ready to explain himself.

LL said...

Further, there is a reason why that issue was "the last word" before closing arguments. None of this happens by accident.

Joel Farnham said...

Two more things I can say about this:

You know the old joke, I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out? Well, I went to a debate and a MSNBC discussion panel broke out.

"So now all of America should know what a 's**t-eating grin' looks like." -- Drive-by Pundit from American Thinker.

Tennessee Jed said...

most disrespectful, embarrassing display ever by a sitting V.P. (or anyone else.) Polls seems to indicate American people felt that way too. Like the Republican response ad.

Patti said...

I woke up this morning with a debate hangover. what a waste of time for everyone involved. as joe lied, all i could think about was how folks across america would be fact-checking statements that didn't ring true to them. hey joe, ever hear of this thang called the internets? (thanky, al gore!)

ugh. ever see those allstate "mayhem" commercials? joe was mayhem. without the funny tagline.

Patti said...

This is a facebook meme making the rounds this morning:

"If a wise man contends with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest." Proverbs 29:9

Individualist said...

Andrew

I think Ryan understood from the begginning that there was not contending with Joe or this moderator. I know you wish that he made many points and he should have made those. The problem is had he started he wuld be cut off, interrupted or brought back out into the Alternative Universe of DNC Troll land were something becomes wrong because the poliical opposition said it.

As to Abortion, I know that is a contentious issue and there are people who are single minded regarding it and talking about it is a loser but it is a loser for both sides and really the people who choose a candidate on that basis have already made their minds up about party as well as the individuals. the DEMS mistakenly think Abortion is a winning issue for them because most people who are Pro Life who are not overly religious avoid the argumnet and most Pro Abortion people can't stop talking about it.

The only Victory I will give Biden is when Ryan talked about the stimulus he pointed out his request for two earmarks. That scored points but only with those who are neophytes as to how DC works. anyone knowledgeable understands that even if true it does not diminish the fact the stimulus was a complete failure. On every other issue however I think Ryan was right.

StanH said...

“If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table.”
This is what we saw of B-B-B-Biden, he pounded the table. It was his typical horsecrap, he’s been full of it his entire career, his bouts with plagiarism, Neal Kinnock, etc. are legendary.

Anecdote: I watched with my wife and a bit with my daughter, Biden’s boorish behavior turned them off as a condescending old man. I didn’t see it, I wanted to slug him. The after debate focus groups, confirmed their opinion, most of the ladies agreed. Biden could have done real damage with on the fence women? We’ll see.

T-Rav said...

God, I have never wanted to punch anyone in the face so hard as I did Joe Biden last night. If I ever see that simpering smile of his again....

I don't think the first of Ryan's failures is as big a problem as you suggest, because I think he did come out looking like the serious, earnest, thoughtful one in the debate. That said, I agree that he could have done better in a lot of areas. If Biden hadn't acted like a total ass throughout the debate, and scaled back the attempts at humor a bit, he could very well have taken the high ground. He did get in some good one-liners on Ryan (stimulus, etc.), and could really have exploited those if he'd kept his flopping mouth shut.

As it is, though, this seems to have been a draw in public opinion, or narrowly favorable for Ryan. Hopefully the Romney camp draws the proper conclusions from this crapfest and acts accordingly for the next debate.

TJ said...

"So now all of America should know what a 's**t-eating grin' looks like." -- Drive-by Pundit from American Thinker.

That was exactly my thought from the very beginning of the debate.

And I agree with Stan and T-Rav - I would love to knock that s**t-eating grin right off his face and I'm a woman!

tryanmax said...

I'm afraid I have to say Biden won last night only b/c he achieved what he clearly set out to and prevented Ryan from doing the same. He went in knowing that he couldn't claim a real victory, so he made it his goal to thwart any gains from Ryan by destroying the debate itself. The old "if I can't have it, no one can" strategy.

However, true to form, I think Biden overdid it. He laid the "trust me, I'm a Democrat" argument on too thick and too often. That's only a turn-on to Democrats and if you say it too many times, it starts to conjure up reasons not to trust in those who don't inherently already. It doesn't sound like Biden's performance pulled anyone away from Ryan and instead pushed some away.

Still, Joe's shenanigans and malarkey overshadowed anything Paul had to say, so it's still a win for him.

LINK

ArmChairGeneral said...

Andrew I couldn't find your email in my address book on google. I had this thought that a nice memorial for Lawhawk would be to put a post and then both of your comments for a few subjects. I think that would be nice and he would like it.

Writer X said...

I watched the debate last night in Chicago with a group of mostly Independents. Not one person was impressed with Joe Biden. In fact, one lady said, "I couldn't take him seriously, with all the tacky behavior." Another guy said Biden looked and acted like "a bad talk show host."

I agree with you, Andrew, that Ryan needed to push back that moderator more forcefully.

T-Rav said...

tryanmax, I would have to disagree, if only because style trumps substance so often in these debates. No one's really talking about what was said last night, they're talking about how it was said. It could just be wishful thinking, of course, but I think Biden came off as a bully and a buffoon, and Ryan showed that he's the serious one.

The more important question, though, is whether this will move the poll numbers back towards Obama. I don't see that they will.

Jen said...

Joel, I posted a comment last week that was a revision of what you said, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with Biden".

BevfromNYC said...

T-Rav - I actually agree with you. No one is talking substance (except for Andrew, of course). At least from what I have read, the main topic is Biden's attack-dog style and how Obama coulda'/shoulda' done that (or not).

BevfromNYC said...

Jen -
"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with Biden".

EXCELLENT!!! That is exactly what they did.

tryanmax said...

T-Rav, I stand by my statement but I also agree with you completely. Judging from the early polls and the movement within the Democrat spin machine, I'd say Biden pretty clearly lost the debate. But between the two of them, Biden is the only one who achieved what he set out to. That's all I'm saying.

Also, I want to share a quote by Peggy Noonan regarding the debate and relate it to another topic. She said that Biden lost the debate by "confusing strength with aggression." It's a great turn of phrase. I also happen to think it sums up perfectly the problem with not just the Democrat party, but particularly the present-day feminist movement. I bring it up only because it encapsulates an idea I've been trying to express for some time.

T-Rav said...

Jen, Biden and bull@#$% are increasingly synonymous, aren't they? ;-)

AndrewPrice said...

Joel, I honestly wanted to punch Joe last night. The man is a disgrace.

AndrewPrice said...

Anthony, You just missed aggravation. Joe was beyond anything we've ever seen before in a candidate. He was like a child throwing a tantrum in a store. All the rest was lost in the haze.

Jen said...

Thanks Bev! I thought of that one a while back, and wondered when I could use it. I used it a bit too soon (last week), but that's okay, I tried it again.

I saved a text file on it not long after it came to mind. I just checked the file, and it was dated September 3rd.

T-Rav said...

tryanmax, fair enough. I will say that Biden did throw a lot of red meat to the Democrat base, so maybe this will motivate more of them to turn out on Election Day. I doubt either independents or Republicans were affected, though.

I did just see, for what it's worth, a poll conducted in California, showing movement by 59% of viewers towards Romney and 40% towards Obama. Biden still won narrowly, according to the poll, but mixed results like that in California are good news.

Jen said...

T-Rav, Yeah, you could change one with the other, and no one would know the difference.

T-Rav said...

Bev, unfortunately for the Dems, I think that if any actual substance is remembered from last night, it'll be Biden's shameless mistruths on Libya, and also his lies about not voting for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. I don't see anyone playing "gotcha" with Ryan's statements.

AndrewPrice said...

LL, I agree about abortion and this is one thing which proves a serious weakness for Ryan -- he let Joe get away with massive distortions. He was trying to discuss facts with Joe while Joe was spinning BS. Ryan needed to call him point blank every time he did that, and the abortion issue was one of those. Ryan needed to say, "wait a minute, you talk about not imposing your religious views yet your own plans force taxpayers to pay for abortion." But he didn't. He made the mistake Republicans always make of assuming the public knows what is really going on and leaving it to the public to sort through Joe's distortions.

As for the war on women, they've been back at that all week already so that's nothing new. The problem for them on that they are simultaneously trying to turn off the religious right by claiming that Romney won't do anything about abortion. So they are sending mixed messages which look like political smears.

AndrewPrice said...

LL, I totally agree that the abortion question was intentional. The moderator was working to help Biden, there's no doubt. She phrased everything to help him, adopted his attacks as true and pressed them on Ryan, she cut off his good answers, let Joe rebut every time, and picked topics designed to help Joe.

Ask yourself why they started with foreign policy, then quickly buried the areas Ryan would be good at, then went back to foreign policy and then finished with abortion. The order makes no sense except that starts and finished with Joe's supposed strengths, and then let her paint Ryan as an abortion crazy to end the debate.

AndrewPrice said...

Joe, In many ways, this did resemble and MSNBC panel discussion, except that Joe was even too rude for that. I haven't seen more polls yet today, but I suspect he will not poll well from this.

AndrewPrice said...

Jed, I haven't seen the Republican response ad yet, but I would definitely string together all of his interruptions, he smirks, his mugging, etc. This was disgraceful. Joe is an embarrassment to our country.

AndrewPrice said...

Patti, It has always been true that you just can win when you argue with a fool and last night proved that once again. Joe is a fool and he turned the whole thing into a disgraceful waste of time. Ryan might as well have been trying to talk rationally to someone having a tantrum.

AndrewPrice said...

Indi, I think the debate showed that Ryan is not a genuine debater. He's a policy wonk. He needed to handle this very differently.

1. He needed a narrow focus so that people would take away 1-3 ideas and nothing more. In a debate like this, that is all that can get through.

2. He needed to take Joe's big, obvious lies, shake his head like he was amazed Joe said that, and then flip them around and follow up with analogies so that people see exactly what Joe is doing.

3. He needed to ignore the moderator and talk about whatever he needed. And when she cut him off, he needed to just keep going. He needed to say things like, "hold on, this is important".

As for abortion, yes, the people who vote on that issue have basically chosen their sides. But the problem is that the issue annoys those in the middle, and the reason it was brought up was to make Ryan look like he wanted to talk about abortion. He fell for it by giving his position. Notice that Biden never gave a position, he doubled-up on Ryan's position. Ryan needed to talk only about why Obama wants to force religious hospital to provide it and why he wants to make taxpayers pay for it.

AndrewPrice said...

Stan, That's the question. Romney has been surging with women and it's possible that Biden may have solidified that tonight. It's not clear.

I will say, however, that this went way beyond the usual crap we see from Biden. This was truly disgraceful. He acted like a child throwing a tantrum.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, I wanted to punch him too and still do.

I think this debate highlighted that Ryan is not a debater. He's an informer. He's good at earnest discussions of policy, but not good at the kind of back and forth that happens in heavily-biased campaigning.

It will be interesting to see what lessons are drawn from this. If Obama sinks further with women this week, then Obama will need to reconsider this attack plan. If he doesn't, then he will try the same thing with Romney. Romney needs to be prepared for that and needs to start getting ready to toss out lines suggesting that Obama is "angry" and keep using those.

obiwan2009 said...

T-Rav, at least I heard on NPR today at noon Eastern Shore Time the idea of trying to get the liberal block to vote as many of their own early or on absentee ballot before election day, which I find rediculous. I mean seriously, I know that segregation by law was abhorrent, but segregation by personal choice, that's downright rediculous, I honestly think it's absurd some people don't think they're good enough to vote with the rest of us.

AndrewPrice said...

tryanmax, I'm not sure. I agree that Biden set out to kill the debate and he managed to do that. But the real question of winning is whether or not he managed to stop Romney's forward momentum. I'm not sure he did that. I'm not sure if his asininity wasn't so bad that it won't end up helping sway a few more moderates into the Romney/Ryan camp. At this point, it's just not clear.

I'm also not sure that he might not end up teaching Obama the wrong lesson. If Obama buys the CBS poll (which is the definition of bias) then he will think that Biden won hands down and he will try the very same thing, which would be a huge mistake.

At the point, I think the best we can really say is that Biden made himself look bad, Ryan didn't achieve anything, and the ultimate result is unknown at this point.

AndrewPrice said...

ACG, I'm going to talk about him tomorrow. Thanks for the idea.

AndrewPrice said...

Writer X, I hope that's indicative of independents everywhere because if that's the case, then they didn't hear a word he said and nothing from last night will stick.

I agree about the moderator. Ryan let himself get bullied and he needed to be more forceful. He's obviously not a debater because a trial attorney would never allow a judge to get away with that... there are many ways to push back and turn it to your favor.

rlaWTX said...

I think that if Ryan had bulldogged all of Biden's lies, he would have come off as the bully. Overall, I wasn't disappointed with Ryan. I think he comported himself well in the face of extreme aggravation. To me he seemed to be the grown-up at the table.

As much as I hated the bombastic, condescending, rude version of Biden for the first 2/3 of the debate, the low voice, seducing, come hither version at the end was infinitely more creepy!

The GOP superPAC advertisers should have a field day with clips of this debate!!!!!
"I always say what I mean and say what I mean" -> lie -> rebuttal with facts.
repeat with next lie...

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, Style is always the takeaway in debates unless there is a key moment where things implode or an incredible zinger. Everything that was said last night was last in the haze of Biden's misbehavior.

That said, I still think Ryan doesn't across all that well. I think he seemed polite, but not memorable and he got caught a couple times in bad answers (like the stimulus money thing). He really needed to figure out a couple points just to strike over and over repeat like an advertising slogan. "America needs a foreign policy that protects the American people and projects American values"... something like that.

AndrewPrice said...

Jen, Baffle them with Biden is right.

rlaWTX said...

OT: taking a look at the links on the left of the page--
EOnline are 1/2 in German?? and the European union won the 2012 Peace Prize?? as if TOTUS' win wasn't a clue of their irrelevance, this certainly is!

AndrewPrice said...

Bev, I took notes on the substance and even then, I had a hard time remembering any of it. Biden's behavior made the substance all but irrelevant.

I think his behavior will be all that ultimately comes out of this debate. The question is, what lesson will people draw? The idiots on the MSNBC-left will be clapping their hands like trained seals that Biden finally showed enough petulance to make them happy. The right will be outraged by him sinking way beneath the dignity of the office. The question is how the middle will react?

AndrewPrice said...

rlaWTX, That's not German. Those look more like French to me?

AndrewPrice said...

tryanmax, Thanks for the Noonan quote!! I was struggling with the exact same thing last night. I was trying to think of how to describe Biden's behavior. He clearly thought he was "strong" and "dominated the debate," but it struck me abusive rather than strength. I think calling it "confusing aggression for strength" perfectly explains Biden's mistake.

Also, Noonan is a RINO. She's one of those who feels her way through candidates and her opinions end up pretty representative of the squishy middle. So if she thinks Biden lost because he was an ass, then Biden lost the independents last night.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, They aren't synonymous because bullsh*t has some useful qualities. It can fertilize fields, for example. Biden, on the other hand, is entirely useless. He's more like human sludge.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, I haven't seen that poll (about 59%/40% movement), but that would confirm that Biden played to the base and lost everyone else.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav and Bev, I need to disagree about what substance will be remembered. People don't remember details, they remember moments and big-picture details. Biden lying about Libya won't be remembered because it needs too much independent knowledge. They may remember him blaming the intelligence people, but I doubt it.

What is more like to be remembered: (against Biden)

1. Iran isn't building a bomb.
2. We never went to the UN.
3. The military needs to be cut.

What is more like to be remembered: (against Ryan)

1. You asked for stimulus money.
2. You want to privatize social security and people would have no retirement today if it had been in the stock market.

BevfromNYC said...

Hey, the EU deserves the Peace Prize...it just means that they will devolve into war shortly. But then again, Germany finally won WWII without firing a shot since May 8, 1945. They have effectively caused all the allied nations to beg Germany to save them economically, so now Germany owns the EU.

T-Rav said...

For whoever was asking about it, here's the new RNC ad stringing all of Biden's dumb laughs together. LINK

AndrewPrice said...

obiwan, They need to get their base motivated and that is likely what Biden's performance was about. But I think it's too late for them to do that and then to swing back to the center just in time for voting day. Plus, I think they likely lost too many independents last night to make that a good strategy.

T-Rav said...

Andrew, I don't know. The stimulus thing might be remembered, although I don't see anyone talking about it this morning. If any "good" line from Biden is likely to be remembered, I think it will be him at the end trying to make mincemeat of the "47 percent" thing, saying, "That's my mother. That's my father." Just saying, if I were an undecided voter, that would have moved me more than anything else he said.

Given the attention Joe is getting for his aggression, though, I think it's more likely his own bad statements will catch more flak in the end. The spotlight's on him already.

AndrewPrice said...

rlaWTX, They should string that quote together with his more outrageous racist and sexist Bidenisms.

To me, I don't know that Ryan looked like the adult because he struck me as too passive rather than as having a commanding presence. He didn't need to fight back on everything, be kept letting himself be bullied by Joe and by the moderator and he let too many big lies slip. He reminded me a lot of how Republicans normally debate.

AndrewPrice said...

Bev, The EU has indeed become the Greater German Empire and it has been a surprisingly easy victory for them. At least the Germans make good beer. :)

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, What amazes me in that clip is not that he's laughing so much, but the things he's laughing at. He's laughing at facts, about things people care about (unemployment, the concerns of Israel, Romney giving to charity, etc.).

In truth, I think his plan was just to laugh at anything that was said and he wasn't really listening, but still, it comes across as truly obnoxious and uncaring about the misery Obama/Biden have caused.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, I think that in the end, the only thing that will be remembered is Joe's misbehavior. I don't see any other takeaway at this point.

Although, keep in mind that these clips will now be used in ads, so takeaways can still be created.

tryanmax said...

Andrew, I'm probably assessing Biden's goal differently than most. I don't think he went in thinking he could slow R&R's momentum, much less win the debate. I think he just went in to put a muzzle on Ryan, and in that regard, I think he succeeded. He set the bar knee-high and managed not to trip.

Conversely, Ryan clearly wanted to make several points, few if any of which made it past the noise. That's how I draw a Biden win. But like I told T-Rav, I also agree that Biden lost in terms of his achieved goal coming at a cost the campaign cannot bear. Was that cost automatic? Probably not, but that just Joe! ;-)

AndrewPrice said...

tryanmax, I understand your assessment and I think you are correct -- Biden wanted to destroy the debate, keep Ryan from making any points, and he wanted to toss red meat to the left so they would shut up about Obama not being aggressive enough. In that, he was successful.

But I think ultimately, he way overplayed his hand and the result of the debate will be a negative to the campaign.

obiwan2009 said...

Andrew, I agree the strategy is plenty pathetic, and I doubt it will really win the election either. However, I find it still rediculous to go out of one's way to make an exception to voting with the rest. I mean, with a little trip down history lane here, wasn't there a serious protest all about being able to vote with everyone else (/sarc off) Again, this whole year has been full of people trying to make themselves exceptions to conventional rules and/or etiquette. First the GOP Primary state ballots, then the whole poor information on the Middle East, which outside of the main networks isn't really all that bad - showing the Libyan government as not being totally our enemy, and then there's the poor debate prep, which, even though I have vehement disagreements with both Obama and Biden, it's still disappointing to me that such conduct exists at such high levels, much less these people should have simply known better.

K said...

My wife mentioned that she couldn't remember most of the arguments in the first Presidential debate, but that she damn well remembered Romney's very Presidential appearance and Obama's lack of same. If that's true for swing voters then I don't think Joe did the ticket much good.

rlaWTX said...

Andrew, I think anyone staying on that stage and not punching the Laughing Jackass's lights out qualifies as acting more grown-up... I do see your point though.

and it was German earlier!! now it's French - maybe it's celebrating the EU's prize?

Individualist said...

Andrew

Well I'll say this in defence of Ryan.

There are several key campaign points that he found time to point out in a speech and he managed to deliver them well for the camera especially the closing speech.

I think the campaign should be able to take these and make great ads out of them. then we'd get some benefit from this fiasco.

As to slow angry Joe I guess I can't see it. He told such obvious lies that I guess I can't understand people might not immediately see that. But you are right in that Ryan never challenged him. Had he done so the debate would have just sunk so deep in Biden and Raddatz Pig Slop Pen that I'd of had to turn it off.

AndrewPrice said...

obiwan, It is disappointing, but it doesn't surprise me. Obama and Biden are both exactly what their history predicts. Obama is the talent-less Chicago crony who robbed the treasury for his backers and Biden is the slime lizard who smear and lies his way through selling you a bridge that he doesn't own. This is nothing new.

AndrewPrice said...

K, From the reaction today, it seems that Biden didn't help anything. It seems like Biden turned off independents, and any boost Obama got among his base was offset by an equal boost among conservatives.

AndrewPrice said...

rlaWTX, I see your point and Ryan should be commended for not beating the living crud out of Joe. I know I wanted to punch the jerk.

Hmm... it's English again. I wonder if it was intentional?

AndrewPrice said...

Indi, People who aren't informed will not know that Biden is lying. I don't think Joe said anything that light that someone who is first tuning into the election would recognize as an obvious lie or as having been debunked. That's the problem. That's also how pathological liars work, they bury you in lies so that it becomes impossible to expose them all in the hopes that some of the lies get through.

BevfromNYC said...

Expect "mean and snarky Obama" to appear at the next debate on Tuesday at Hofstra in Hempstead, NY (Long Island). He will have misinterpreted the criticism to mean the public WANTS him to not be "so polite" rather than they want him to show that he knows what the hell he's talking about. His handlers will slip him an amphetamine so he won't look like he's a deer caught in headlights. And I'm sure that the "spontaneous" questions from the "townhall" audience will be fully vetted for his approval.

Doc Whoa said...

Bev, That's exactly what I see happening. Biden will be praised by MSNBC all week and Obama will run with it.

T-Rav said...

Andrew and Bev, all we have to do now is install someone with the surname of "Hapsburg" as EU president, and the past century will have come full circle. Oh, it's coming.

T-Rav said...

Andrew, it occurs to me that maybe Biden was told to do the Reagan thing--come back at Ryan with gentle laughter and appear as the good-natured, in-control statesman type. Unfortunately, Biden doesn't know the meaning of the word "gentle" (or most polysyllabic words, to be honest), and he totally overdid it. Besides, Reagan was backed up with an understanding of the situation and the audience, neither of which Grandpa Joe grasps.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, I love the idea of putting a Hapsburg back in charge!

That's an interesting idea about Biden being told to be like Reagan. I'm not sure I believe that as he really did launch straight into the attacks with his malarkey comments and the such, but it could well be that he was told to be both mocking but also jolly and it just came across as asinine?

AndrewPrice said...

Doc and Bev, I see that too. I think Obama will interpret this as a green light to go on the attack. But that's a huge mistake. For one thing, Joe can be dismissed as a fool, but Obama can't. He's supposed to be the president and he will come across as pissy and angry. For another, attacking Romney still gives the public no reason to support Obama and that's what this election is about.

Plus, Obama needs to win back women and they can't be won with attacks.

tryanmax said...

Andrew, you've got a typo there. You said "asinine" but I think you meant "insane." ;-)

AndrewPrice said...

tryanmax, Is insan-inine a word?

BevfromNYC said...

Andrew - In the Commentarama-nary, "insaninine" is listed right next to a picture of Joe Biden...

AndrewPrice said...

Bev, The "Commentarama-nary"... that really has a ring to it! :)

rlaWTX said...

The "Commentarama-nary" is an excellent idea - especially with how often one of us comes up with a new term...

And apparently the Lohan has decided to tweet support for Romney - can support be refused???

AndrewPrice said...

LOL! Now that is a great idea!

@Lohan: "I support Romney."

@Romney: "No thank you. Have a nice day. Stay off drugs."


P.S. I'm liking the Commentarama-nary!

tryanmax said...

As far as hot messes go, I must admit that Lohan is my favorite.

BevfromNYC said...

Well, then the first two words of the newly formed Commentaram-nary are:

Commentarama-nary noun - a compendium of descriptive ad hoc words and phrases created to describe political, moral, ethical, or just plain idiotic situations or persons where the Merriam-Webster unabridged dictionary versions just will not suffice.

insaninine Adj - simultaneously stupid and crazy as in "Joe Biden is just plain insaninine"

AndrewPrice said...

tryanmax, I don't know, she's kind of crossed over into the land of celebrity zombies for me.

T-Rav said...

If I recall, Paris Hilton endorsed McCain back in '08 and/or donated to his campaign. Just saying....

AndrewPrice said...

Bev, Bravo!

//applauds

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, There are a lot of celebrities starting to come out as Republicans. I think that's a sign that the times are changing and the Democrats have lost their appeal in pop culture.

Joel Farnham said...

Andrew,

I don't know. Once you have lost the drug-addled Lindsey Lohan, Obama's base, you have lost everything.

T-Rav said...

I don't think I really want those celebrities on our side, though. I'm still going to make fun of them, this just makes it kind of awkward.

AndrewPrice said...

So 51 million people watched last night and I can't find any real articles saying Biden won... just a lot talking about his manners.

There are polls now too showing Romney with 6% leads in Virgina and Florida. If true, that mean his momentum continues. Colorado, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin are now all in the toss up list at RCP.

Things are looking bad for Obama.

AndrewPrice said...

Joel, Good point... that is Obama's base!


T-Rav, We got a rapper today too, though I've never heard of him before.

Koshcat said...

I'm glad I didn't watch it. Watched a recording with my kids where they purposely crashed a 727 into the Mexican desert. I also watched part of the football game and some baseball playoffs and part of a recorded Wagner Opera (Thank you PBS).

Did see a small excerpt of the debate and Biden was a jerk. The part I saw was when Biden was arguing that you can't increase tax revenue by decreasing tax rates and it has never been done. When Ryan tried to counter that it has been done by Kennedy and Reagan, Biden snarkely added "so, now your a JFK fan?!"

Sigh. I wish Ryan would have been more aggressive but I think his inexperience at being a bully showed. As Rush said today, Ryan actually is a nice guy. The retort for the above snark would have been a simple "I am in favor of good ideas regardless of what person or party they come from."

This will not make much change or be remembered much except for the day Biden may have completely lost his marbles. When he loses he may disappear like Gore for awhile only to show up later 50lbs heavier and with a beard.

T-Rav said...

Andrew, I saw the other day where the pollsters at Suffolk (don't know much about them, though I've heard of them before) said they were going to discontinue surveys in Virginia, North Carolina, and Florida, because according to them, there was no scenario in which they wouldn't break for Mitt. I could have told you that on NC, but....dang. Here's hoping.

AndrewPrice said...

Koshcat, You didn't miss anything. Biden was a jerk throughout and it made the whole thing almost unwatchable.

As for Biden disappearing like Gore, I think Biden will simply move to some lobbying firm and make a ton of money.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, I have had no doubt that Romney will win Virginia and North Carolina. Florida has been more iffy, but I think he'll ultimately win by 3-5%.

Interestingly, the democrats thought they would win Florida because of Ryan's Medicare plan, but they are now admitting that didn't work like they expected.

Joel Farnham said...

Andrew,

I just got an interesting take on Ryan. The Ryan who pushes grandma over the cliff wasn't present. Now, Obama can't say Ryan hates old people any more. Ryan sat quietly while the old guy wailed and smirked away, like a good son at the feet of his elders. Ryan was too polite for my tastes, but there are a few elders who bought into the meme of upstart kid and they didn't see that.

AndrewPrice said...

TJ, Sorry, I just saw your comment in the spam filter. I don't know how I missed it early. I'll tell you, I wanted to smack the smirk off his face!

AndrewPrice said...

Joel, That's true. It's going to be very hard for Team Obama to paint either Romney or Ryan as heartless monsters after these two debates.

rlaWTX said...

Most excellent, Bev!!!!!

Andrew, great tweet conversation!

Joel, awesome conclusion!!

USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Biden went full Biden. In doing so, he prevented Ryan from talking about the issues (for long) but he didn't do Obama any favors.

In fact, he may have hurt Obama worse by projecting his true image into voter's minds and it ain't pretty.

Obama and Biden are The Bad, And The Ugly (only not nearly as entertaining).

If Obama attempts to go full Biden it will only make matters worse for him.

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