Wednesday, January 16, 2013

How to Debate: Drugs

How about we talk about how NOT to win the marijuana debate. Perhaps in pointing out why something won’t work, we can help some people figure out what will work. For this lesson, let’s focus on an article from Denver a couple weeks ago which highlights exactly the wrong approach to take in arguing against drug legalization.

The article in question starts with an interview with Sgt. Jim Gerhardt of a Denver-area drug task force. He was asked to discuss the effects that legalizing pot will have in Colorado. He made all the usual points you always hear from the non-legalization side. Let’s examine his points one by one:
“There’s plenty of evidence that this a harmful thing for kids. I can’t even believe I have to say that.”
This is a horrible start. Do you know why? Because he just lost half his audience. Indeed, this opening shot discredits him with people who favor legalization precisely because he’s just stated a heavy bias. He’s basically told them that he thinks they are so stupid that he doesn’t even need to offer evidence to refute their views. After this, who could see this man as a credible source of information? And since he needs to reach people who favor legalization if he wants to prevent or reverse legalization efforts, this is a horrible way to begin.

He continues:
“We’ve seen children infant age that have been getting into this stuff and hospitalized, and this has been under medical marijuana. I can’t imagine how bad it’s going to get with full blown legalization.”
This is a loser with the public. The fact that a couple people have been irresponsible simply does not sway the public to take away freedoms. It hasn’t worked with guns, it hasn’t worked with alcohol, it hasn’t worked with anything. The American public does not believe that something should be banned just because someone misused it. Not to mention, the “do it for the children” approach has been so ruthlessly mocked that it is no longer a valid argument with the majority of the public, and it certainly holds no sway with the part of the public that is looking at pot as just a little bit of fun.

Unfortunately, he then fails to offer any real evidence of harm. Thus, his statement that “there’s plenty of evidence that this a harmful thing for kids” sounds like a lie and this reinforces the idea that the anti-legalization people have made up the dangers to scare us.

Next an addiction counselor adds this:
“Children are more likely to become dependant when they start use early. Even if it’s an advertant use. In children in particular the brain is still developing. It’s actually developing up until age 25. So we’re not sure how the substances impact the developing of the brain.”
This is disastrous. First, again, we don’t ban something just because some idiot misuses it, even if their kids get a hold of it. BUT more importantly, notice the admission that they don’t know “how the substances impact the developing brain.” In other words, her argument is fabricated. She is arguing, “we have no idea how this actually hurts kids, but trust me, it will hurt kids.”

She then notes that kids are more likely to try pot if someone puts it in brownies and she lists two incidents where someone gave pot-laced brownies to a teenage girl and a college student and professor. Each of them ended up “going to the hospital.” She then gravely warns, “All the problems we’ve already had have exploded, and I think they are going to get worse.”

Can you see the problems? First, she failed to point out any harm from pot, yet now she proceeds to scaremonger by warning us of the pot brownie menace! Oh my! “I can’t tell you why this is bad, but it will be even worse once brownies enter the mix!” Then the pot brownie menace turns out to be two instances... and all we know about those people is that they ended up going to the hospital. There is NOTHING here that will sway anyone who doesn’t already believe. There is nothing to tell you why pot is harmful or why brownies will make it worse or how legalization will be worse yet... maybe we’ll get four people visiting the hospital with diarrhea! Oh my!

This is the problem with the anti-legalization crowd. They offer nothing but unsubstantiated opinion of mass horrors which they cannot even find evidence to support except for a handful of anecdotal instances that reek of simple misconduct. That is not going to sway anyone who doesn’t already believe that drugs are evil.

If you want to win the legalization issue, you need to learn to reach the people who aren’t already true believers. That means finding ways to sway people who simply don’t see the harm in it. Offering up anecdotal evidence of three people making non-specific hospital visits and unproven assurances of great horrors no one can see just isn’t going to do that. If you want to win this debate, get some real proof pot really does hurt people. Do statistical analysis. Look at the mental health, the physical health, the financial health and the criminal records of users. You can’t win significant public policy arguments with “trust me, it could be bad.”

And most importantly, find proof that allowing people to smoke pot hurts other people. Remember, the argument you need to defeat is that legalization is about personal freedom. That’s a powerful argument, and defeating it requires focusing on the people who will lose their freedoms if you grant this one. Focus on the people who will be randomly drug tested. Focus on the people who will die in accidents, the employers who will get sued, the taxpayers who will pay for a massive regulatory scheme, the increased crime rate, the increased cost of social services.

This point here actually applies to a lot of conservative arguments. Too often, conservatives present arguments that only appeal to believers. They need to learn to reach the people who are sitting in the middle and don’t buy the arguments conservatives have already tried, but whose minds are open to aspects of these issues they haven’t considered. You will never win an argument be repeating an argument people have already rejected.

53 comments:

AndrewPrice said...

FYI, I may be out most of the morning and early afternoon, so please feel free to talk amongst yourselves. :)

Commander Max said...

Pot, oh boy. Trying to argue the subject with someone who is into it, is like arguing with a wall. But talking to the wall would be a much more stimulating conversation.

Bringing up kids and pot? Wait isn't exposing a kid to second hand pot smoke, something like second hand cigarette smoke?

Yea, I know.

AndrewPrice said...

Max, You'll never win over pot heads, but honestly, they aren't the ones you need. The people you need are the ones in the middle who don't smoke pot but don't really see why this isn't a matter of personal freedom.

This is an area where conservatives have again been bad at developing arguments because they haven't put any effort into creating the kind of data they need. They just do like the people in the article do and assume that everyone knows it's bad for you. That's not good enough when you want to win people over.

AndrewPrice said...

Max, Let me add, this is one of the points I've been trying to make about how lazy conservatives have gotten. On issue after issue, conservatives these days just assume that everyone believes what they believe and accepts their arguments as true and the only reason people don't go along with it is that those people want freebies or are dope heads or whatnot. The truth is that conservatives have gotten very lazy when it comes to selling our ideas and all we are doing these days is preaching to the choir. That needs to change if we want to win on these issues. We need to dramatically improve our ability to sell our ideas.

And the drug debate is an example of that. All conservatives are saying is, "well, it's bad, duh." But that doesn't work for anyone who doesn't know if it's really bad or not. We need to develop the evidence we need to support our arguments. Run studies. Crunch numbers. Find the proof to actually show that it is bad, not just that we think it's bad.

Mr_Severus_Snape said...

I really fail to see how pot legalization is about "personal freedom". Potheads can easily get it, whenever they need their fix. All the potheads I know, know people who "can hook them up". Ultimately, all they're doing is shooting themselves in the foot with more taxation and regulation. I honestly don't give a f*ck about the topic of drug legalization, there are so many other important issues out there, but sadly this is what a lot of people only care about. *sigh*

Mr_Severus_Snape said...

Surprisingly, my state voted down Prop 19, so there's SOME sanity left in CA! lol

Anthony said...

I'm fine with pot legalization. I don't smoke weed or tobacco and I no longer drink, but if someone else wants to, that's fine by me.

In my experience in college, the weed smokers were orders of magnitude less dangerous than the drunks (especially the guys drinking grain).

Given my love of tasty but unhealthy food (I found a great burger joint during a conference in DC, went there every day) I'm in no position to throw stones at people who harm their health for a short term benefit.

Kit said...

Here is Steven Crowder's video on Marijuana:
LINK

What do you think?

Anthony said...

The Crowder video was hilariously one sided (on the 'anti-legalization' side we have a doctor, on the 'pro-legalization' side, we have a homeless anti-semetic conspiracy theorist) but it was fun to watch.

Tennessee Jed said...

I just googled "is pot stronger today than it was 30-40 years ago?" and was amazed at the various sites that it turned up. Many had particularly scholarly "looks" about them. What I am saying is that it may not be as easy to get good facts as it might seem.

My baseline is that banning it is restricting an individual's freedom, something government loves to do, and I have yet to see a convincing argument to the contrary. This is particularly true in light of how our government has treated alcohol. Quite honestly, the similarities between the two are many, and alcohol abuse has created societal costs and problems far greater than marijuana.

Patriot said...

The government must regulate what you put into your body. It's for your own good. Obviously you must be too uninformed to understand the dangers of ingesting this substance. Since we can't come up with any deadly side effects, we must regulate it or keep it illegal and take away your freedom if you decide to smoke/drink this substance. God help it if we have our citizens deciding on their own that they want to alter their reality for a couple hours.

Patriot said...

As with any "drug" you will have many who will abuse it. Eventually we'll have MAL (Mother's Against Loopiness). Traffic stops will include a THC test to see if you have any in your system. Tests will become so precise that they will be able to detect minute amounts of THC like substances in your system like Breathalyzers do now (mouthwash!). Studies will be done to show the link between pot smoking and reduced reaction times. Stories where high drivers kill a family of four (complete with pictures of the cute kids) will permeate, and we'll be right back where we are now.

Anti-MAL said...

We aim to misbehave

Koshcat said...

This is a topic I have struggled with for some time, especially THC. Definitely, pot needs to discussed separately from other drugs. The proponates are probably right when they say that it is not any more dangerous, and may be safer, than alcohol. The one difference is one can have an alcoholic beverage without getting the buzz such as a glass of good wine with dinner. Pot is all about the buzz.

There is a difference between legalizing it and not making it illegal. The former legitimizes the drug making people more comfortable using it but also allows the government to tax and regulate the snot out of it. You think the war on drugs was aggressive before, just wait when the state is losing potential "revenue" to the cartels. If you want to argue about personal freedom, I think using the reluation aspect might be the better way to go. Basically telling somewhat libertarian and anarchist leaning people that to use pot you will have to buy it from a state approved store selling only state approved product. Except for the whole going to jail for using thing, which is a waste of resources, most of these people have lost some of their personal freedom.

BevfromNYC said...

"But the children???" Yeah, that argument hasn't worked since...well...yesterday [See: gun-ban debate] Btw, Obama will be surrounding himself with little children as he announces his new gun law executive orders today.

However, legalizing marijuana is not really "about the children". Oh, that may be the silly red-herring argument that some use [See: gun-ban debate] The other is "medicinal use" which is a pretty strong argument.

But it is really for other reasons - Mainly to alleviate overcrowding in jails and backlogs in courts. And, most importantly, to open up a new tax revenue stream for the government. If they legalize, they can tax it. Just like alcohol, cigarettes, and gambling, each one of these has been a never-ending revenue streams for taxation. Mainly because people are willing to pay whatever they have to, to do anyone of these. If you smoke, do you really care how much a pack costs? Do you ever take into consideration how much the taxes are on a six-pack of beer. Oh, and gambling is the best - Lotteries - in every state that has one, the selling point to voters has always been that all that money spent on lotteries will be spent to improve education "for the children". That reasoning has worked in every state that has a lottery.

As long as we have the same kind of laws to govern the use of marijuana as we have for alcohol and smoking, I really don't care.

Btw, studies show that smoking marijuana is no different for your lung than smoking cigarettes as far as cancer is concerned. So who do you think is going to get sued when the plaintiffs' bar decides to sue? Well, if you take tobacco as the template - the government will sue the pot manufacturers even though the government was/is encouraged the sale and benefited the most.

Tennessee Jed said...

posted at 12:00 a.m., currently about 11:00 a.m. I've seen no good arguments against legalizing and a good one for control, and a great one pointing out the hypocrisy of the government in suing the tobacco companies. Curious. I also kind of hate arguments I see which state drinking , pot or cigarette smoking is injurious to your health, and since we have decided everybody gets tax payer funded med insurance, we have a right to tell you you may not eat bacon, smoke reefer, etc. BTW, Kosh I do love wine, but the difference you speak of may be a difference of preference, and is probably irrelevant as an argument for permitting one while banning the other.

tryanmax said...

I don't see any arguments for or against marijuana that cannot be in some fashion applied to either alcohol, tobacco, or both, so it becomes exceedingly difficult to argue for one but not another.

Abuse and misuse arguments don't sway b/c we can make special laws to handle those "bad" people. Same goes for it hurting people besides the users.

Random testing arguments don't work b/c, why wouldn't you be open to testing if you have nothing to hide?

Social cost arguments won't work b/c we already bear those in relation to other things and people accept a certain amount. Regulatory costs won't work for the same reason plus the perception is that only users bear the regulatory costs through extra tax on the product.

I'm not saying I agree with any of the reasoning I've laid out, only that I'm not imaginative enough to find a marijuana-specific argument.

---

A complicating reason why conservatives can't successfully argue against marijuana is that conservatives are divided on the topic, as shown in the comments here. It creates a paradoxical image for us: We get to continue being the stodgy side while also conveying just how uncool the anti-pot position is by not having solidarity on it.

If the ultimate decision is to be made on popularity--and that appears to be the likely case--then I have little doubt as to what it will be.

DUQ said...

It's interesting to me that a group of conservatives either supports legalization or doesn't really care. That's not the stereotype at all.

Personally, I've decided I don't care about the issue. I don't think legalization will change anything actually. So why not?

DUQ said...

By the way, I think Andrew's point is very good. IF you want to oppose this, THEN you need to do more than just say, "it's bad, trust me."

And if you think about it, if you can't really prove that is bad, then maybe we should legalize it?


I also agree with this on all of our positions. I think we need to work harder as conservatives to come up with arguments to win people over. Too often I see, "well, our stuff sells itself." No, it doesn't. We need to get better at generating arguments and proof for those arguments.

ellenB said...

Just as an aside, wouldn't the Anti-Mal say, "I am to behave?" ;D

ellenB said...

Bev, The "what about the children" stuff is driving me crazy in the gun debate. It's a bunch of liars and hypocrites trying to exploit dead children and I think it's sick.

Koshcat said...

I wasn't really trying to come up with a good reason not to legalize it as personally I don't care. As long as you don't drive after taking a bong hit, fry your brain. But, since we will be paying for their medical care, maybe we can have everyone who buys it to smoke should sign a waiver regarding treatment for lung cancer, heart disease, kidney disease, and strokes. Smoking marijuana maybe worse than cigarettes in terms of lung disease but there isn't as many long term studys to know for certain.

Koshcat said...

I listened to a tirade on the radio this morning against Obama and gun control from a rock station DJ. Some great lines:

-What's the first four letters in propaganda? Prop that's what those children are: props.
-If something bad happens to you, will the government be there to protect you? No.
-Obama talks about protecting the children by taking away guns but what does he have right there to protect him? Men with guns.

AndrewPrice said...

Sorry about that folks. I had to go to Denver, which Bev will tell you is a pot reference. :)

AndrewPrice said...

Snape, The personal freedom argument is easy. People want to do it, the government won't let them. Hence, allowing it is about personal freedom.

AndrewPrice said...

Anthony, I have no opinion personally on the issue. I'm just making the point that conservatives seem to oppose this, but they aren't putting forward any valid reasons.

And let me be clear... I don't care if something is bad for you or not. That's a matter of personal freedom in my book. Things only concern me when one person ends up endangering another or causing other people problems. So if pot is indeed a danger to non-users, then something does need to be done about it. But right now, there's just no evidence to point to that I can say it's bad for other people.

AndrewPrice said...

P.S. That said, the pro-legalization arguments really are crap. They are lies and distortions. But since they aren't the ones with the burden, right now I think the legalization crowd wins by default.

AndrewPrice said...

Jed, I see a difference between alcohol and pot in that it's a LOT harder to hide being drunk than it is to hide being high.

But none of the arguments are well developed enough to convince me that it's worth banning.

AndrewPrice said...

Patriot, That seems to be the anti-legalization argument, but that's not very satisfying. The government shouldn't be banning things just because they are bad for you, not pot, not burgers. The question should always be if it leads to harm to others.

AndrewPrice said...

Koshcat, I agree completely that other drugs need to be removed from this discussion because other drugs are quantitatively different. Look at meth, for example. Meth makes people violent and crazy, i.e. dangerous. I'm not sure pot does.

AndrewPrice said...

Bev, I hate that argument, but everybody uses it... think about the children! Yeah, let's exploit the children to push our political agendas.

Obama should surrounded himself with dwarves in goblin costumes.

AndrewPrice said...

Jed, I have no problems at all with putting strings on public benefits. If you want something for free from Uncle Sam, then you should need to play by Sam's rules. And we should set those rules to make people drop their bad habits.

AndrewPrice said...

tryanmax, I think the real problem, as I suggest in my article, is that the people opposed to legalization haven't put together a convincing case to ban it. If you want the government to ban something, then you need to come up with a solid reason to do that. And "it's bad for you" just isn't good enough.

If pot does case the harm to society that people claim, then they need to find proof. Look through crime statistics, school grades, etc. Find actual proof of harm that people can point to and say, "this is bad for everyone". The anti-legalization side hasn't done that.

And I think that's something conservatives need to get better at across the board. You can't win arguments with people if you have nothing to back you up except your own opinion.

AndrewPrice said...

DUQ, Exactly. If you want to win an argument like this, you need evidence. Look at the anti-smoking people who built study after study showing the dangers of smoking to smokers and non-smokers. Without that, they never would have made progress. Conservatives need to learn to the same things on their issues.

AndrewPrice said...

Koshcat, That's a good question, how the public would react if you excluded certain conditions from coverage based on lifestyle. I wonder what the reaction would be?

AndrewPrice said...

Koshcat, I think the gun debate is just theater.

Koshcat said...

The whole "you can't have it because it is unhealthy" standpoint is an interesting subject to debate when you get past the emotions and rhetoric.

If we are going to have a society where each of us is asked to help pay for other's health care costs (whether by government or insurance), what rights do the non-using payers have? As a physician, every day I see how a person's self-distructive behavior effects his/her health. What frustrates me is if you try to point it out, many get angry and act offended especially when it comes to weight. I am talking extremes here but if you won't try to take care of yourself, why should I (as a taxpayer/insurance payer not as a physician) have to? This gets really tricky as some studies, mostly out of eastern Europe, have shown that smokers save the state money because they die earlier and come off of social teat.

I don't have answers but it is hard to even talk about it bluntly without being called racist, sexist, age-ist. Now excuse me while I return to trying to invent the perfect snack food that combines doritoes, pepsi, beer, and hot wings.

Patriot said...

Andrew...Theater of the Absurd. Preezie surrounds hissef with children and basically claims that if you don't support my agenda you hate children and want to see them slaughtered. Then when the same folks he accuses of wanting to slaughter children bring up the hypocrisy argument, he has his spokesboy go out and claim how horrible and disgusting they are for bringing Obama's children into this.

"My God Sirs...Have you finally no shame?!"

Stoner Hedd said...

Koshcat.....Mmmmmm, dude now I've got the munchies

AndrewPrice said...

Koshcat, There is a real problem in that regard. People want government freebies to cover them without conditions, but they don't want to pay for other people's "misbehavior." There's really no answer, except that government pretty much overlooks misbehavior whether we want it to or not.

Me personally, I think that if people want to make themselves wards of the state, then the state should treat them as children and impose parental-like controls on them.


You are right about people getting angry when you point out their self-destructive behavior. I've seen the same thing with friends and family who rail against their doctors for telling them the truth, and I've seen it in my legal practice where people get really upset when you tell them that they are the guilty party. Humans are very good at casting blame, but not so great at taking it.

AndrewPrice said...

Patriot, I know. You know what's funny, is that the NRA ad just slams Obama right in the inconvenient truth zone and he doesn't know how to handle it. This is something Republicans should be watching closely and repeating... don't let Obama and the rest pretend they are just average Middle Class people when they aren't. They are the very hypocritical, crony-rich they claim to despise.

Tennessee Jed said...

Andrew - yeah the detection thing doesn't really work. It may be a difference, but not one that really matters, at least on the face of it. For people who would make a comparison, guns don't kill people do; cars alcohol don't kill, people do, some of whom are drunk when they do it. I suspect the number of accidents caused by people who are high on pot is minuscule compared to alcohol.

For what it's worth, my perspective on marijuana is as follows. For people in my generation, pot was as common as a smart phone is today. It was a very mellow drug, extremely non-violent. People tended not to want to go out. It's greatest benefit remains music appreciation which is why it was extremely popular with musicians. It takes it to a whole new level. It was non physically addictive, but people could get into the stoner lifestyle which is, essentially, extremely non-productive. Early govt. campaigns such as the film "Reefer Madness"tended to hurt the credibility of those demonizing the drug. When I finished school, started a career, and family, I like 98% of people my age gave it up, and it was EASY to walk away from. It was, in my opinion, much more benign than alcohol.

I had read that today's pot is a much more potent and dangerous drug. Several years ago, I had an opportunity to try some, and will say it was extremely potent. Therefore, that argument, at least from my own self-research, may have some validity, and it is why I raised the question in my original comment. I would like to see people explore that angle more, because if it is true, then pot today would move from relatively being a harmless recreational drug, but what I did find online was not very compelling.

Koshcat said...

I just watched a report about a helicopter crash in London. Why is it that a regular construction worker who was being interviewed seems to have better grammar and diction than even our president?

AndrewPrice said...

Jed, I understand that it is a lot more potent today.

As for the number of accidents being smaller, that's probably because its use is not very widespread. I can tell you that most people in the criminal justice system test positive for it when they are arrested.

On the detection issue, I have no data, but I can tell you that if it can't be seen without random testing, then random testing will become the norm because liability is just too high to let someone operate train, cook a burger or prepare a tax return while high. But again, this is a question that can't really be answered at the moment.

I guess we'll see though.

AndrewPrice said...

Koshcat, I really don't like the way Obama talks. He's angry and stupid.

Tennessee Jed said...

I actually believe that an employer should have a right to test employees if they believe that not being under the influence is essential to job safety and/or performance. it would better, of course, if the test was designed to detect impairment rather than merely presence of a substance. But interestingly, this discussion just reminded me of the Denzel movie because, (at least I gather,) some of the issues you mention are involved.

AndrewPrice said...

Jed, I think employers need that right, especially in the modern world.

My concern (and I can't say if this is true yet) is that allowing pot will force employers to start testing everyone because the potential liability will be very high.

Tennessee Jed said...

I don't really know either, Andrew. It's probably not cut and dried. But it is probably acceptable as a "term of employment." And, I suppose it is probably wrong to single out pot, per se. There are a heck of a lot of functioning alcoholics out there who are all that obvious either. Of course liability has changed so much just in the past 50 years. Deep pocket, comparative negligence, etc. Juries, like voters, tend to want to help victims whether or not someone else is actually negligent or not.

AndrewPrice said...

Jed, That's definitely a problem -- juries want to help people who are hurt. And in this case, it would be even harder for companies when the victim can show that the person who injured them or whatever was high at the time. Juries will hate the company over that.

Individualist said...

I can make several arguments for why people should not smoke pot.

I find much fewer arguments as to why no one should ever be allowed to smoke pot.

I don't believe in drug legaliztion across the board. I think that many drugs should be banned because the damage they do is to great. Marajuana just is not one of those drugs.

As an aside I beleive there should be a special status for opiates. This drug is physically addicting and an addict could literally die from attempting to go cold turkey.

I find it ludicrous however that libss want to fund methadone clinics for them since methadone is itself dope. Suboxyn mimics the chemical signature of opiates without the high turning off the nerve cells when the opiate is not in the system. This drug is way to expensive and there are not enough free clinics that will see an addict over this.

We spend a lot of time going after those who sell this stuff which we should but not enough time trying to assist those who want to get off it. Still it costs money and someone has to pay for this so in a way it is Catch 22 but not do to bad policy just to circumstance.

I think that more concentration needs to be made on hard drugs and marajuana may be bad but efforts to stop that I think would be better focused on Heroin, MEth, Cocaine and others to which are far worse.

AndrewPrice said...

Indi, I think our "drug war" efforts have been mishandled badly. They should be sending addicts and users into treatment and community service, not prison, and they should be going hard after volume dealers -- LONG prison terms and disgorgement of profits. Right now, they fill the prisons with people who are largely irrelevant to the problem just because they are easy to catch.

Kit said...

"The Crowder video was hilariously one sided (on the 'anti-legalization' side we have a doctor, on the 'pro-legalization' side, we have a homeless anti-semetic conspiracy theorist) but it was fun to watch."

True, but (1) not really any more one-sided than your average Penn&Teller and (2) the science was fairly accurate.

And he granted there might be some to argue in the pro-legalization (that criminalizing Marijuana is violation of personal freedom).

Kit said...

I suppose I am a wait and see person on Marijuana. I want to see how it plays out in states where it is legalized.

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